[Artificer] UMD with multiple spells on the same scroll & when to make the roll

[Denaes]

Say, for example, I am a 2nd level Artificer who wants to scribe 5 Cure Light Wounds onto a scroll within a day.

Now, I don't have the spell, so do I have to roll UMD for each time I'm scribing the spell onto the scroll (5x) or just once to get the spell emulation right?

Also, do I only roll once or twice each and when do I make the rolls? I know on a multiple day project, you make the rolls once each day (time seemed unspecified) and then one last shot when you were done if you still have any unmade rolls.

Say I have a time limited bonus (like the artificer infusion for giving you a skill bonus) of 2 hours, how would I best use the infusion to get my bonus to UMD?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I was afraid you were going to ask this one after the last thread!

I'm not entirely certain I'm right, but here's what I believe.

When making items that take multiple days, you need to only emulate the prerequisite once. Then, at the end, you get one last shot to make any prereqs you've failed to meet as a kind of last ditch effort. Thus, for a normal scroll of one low-level spell (<1,000gp value), you get two chances to successfully emulate the prereq. One because it's day 1, and another as your last ditch effort.

So, here's the way I think it works:

When creating a scroll, the prereqs are Scribe Scroll and the spell to be scribed. If you were to create a scroll of Magic Missile and Acid Arrow, you'd need both MM and AA. I therefore do not see any reason whatsoever to rule that, when creating a scroll with two copies of MM, you wouldn't need MM twice.

So, in order to create a scroll of 5 CLW spells, you'd need 5 CLWs available. That means 5 emulations.

Accordingly, on day 1, you may attempt each CLW emulation check once. Note down how many successes you have. Since this item is less than 1K in price (probably), it will only take 1 day to complete. If it had taken more than one day, you'd get a chance each day to emulate the remaing CLWs (you only need to succeed once for each spell prereq, remember). Additionally, since this is the last day of crafting, you may make one last-ditch attempt at each CLW you failed to emulate before.

If you successfully emulate CLW five times, you're done. Congratulations on your nifty new scroll!

If you fail to emulate CLW five times, you're also done. The rules on partial successes are pretty harsh, however - you ruin a portion of your materials and have to start over from scratch.

If you want to benefit from magic to improve your skill bonuses, then I would rule that it must be active throughout the entire period of your work - so you'd need at least an 8 hour-long buff.

Keep in mind, though, that artificer-created scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, and thus aren't easily useable (they can only be used through UMD checks).

Are there any other spellcasters in your party? You can use the rules on cooperative magic item creation just as well as any other caster. (For instance, if there's a cleric in the party, have him provide the multiple CLW prereqs and act as the creator while you provide the Scribe Scrolls prereq; the scrolls will end up as divine CLW scrolls - easily useable by him and no harder for you to use - and then *he* gets to pay the XP cost.)

 

[Denaes]

I was afraid you were going to ask this one after the last thread!

I'm not entirely certain I'm right, but here's what I believe.

When making items that take multiple days, you need to only emulate the prerequisite once. Then, at the end, you get one last shot to make any prereqs you've failed to meet as a kind of last ditch effort. Thus, for a normal scroll of one low-level spell (<1,000gp value), you get two chances to successfully emulate the prereq. One because it's day 1, and another as your last ditch effort.

So, here's the way I think it works:

When creating a scroll, the prereqs are Scribe Scroll and the spell to be scribed. If you were to create a scroll of Magic Missile and Acid Arrow, you'd need both MM and AA. I therefore do not see any reason whatsoever to rule that, when creating a scroll with two copies of MM, you wouldn't need MM twice.

So, in order to create a scroll of 5 CLW spells, you'd need 5 CLWs available. That means 5 emulations.

Accordingly, on day 1, you may attempt each CLW emulation check once. Note down how many successes you have. Since this item is less than 1K in price (probably), it will only take 1 day to complete. If it had taken more than one day, you'd get a chance each day to emulate the remaing CLWs (you only need to succeed once for each spell prereq, remember). Additionally, since this is the last day of crafting, you may make one last-ditch attempt at each CLW you failed to emulate before.

If you successfully emulate CLW five times, you're done. Congratulations on your nifty new scroll!

If you fail to emulate CLW five times, you're also done. The rules on partial successes are pretty harsh, however - you ruin a portion of your materials and have to start over from scratch.

If you want to benefit from magic to improve your skill bonuses, then I would rule that it must be active throughout the entire period of your work - so you'd need at least an 8 hour-long buff.

Pretty much what I thought. So if you failed on one of your 5 CLW's, then you flubbed it and have nothing?

Keep in mind, though, that artificer-created scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, and thus aren't easily useable (they can only be used through UMD checks).

see:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=287579&page=1&pp=30 post #30.

The design team for Eberron have stated that a spell is innately whatever school/type that it came from, but still not a normal scroll. So a cleric would have no problems reading said scroll of CLW. Both because they have that spell and because it's devine. A Mage would have to use UMD to read the scroll.

On the other hand, if the scroll were Magic Missile, it's not a true Arcane spell and the mage can't just scribe it, but they can use it without problems.

At least that's what I took away from all of that.

Are there any other spellcasters in your party? You can use the rules on cooperative magic item creation just as well as any other caster. (For instance, if there's a cleric in the party, have him provide the multiple CLW prereqs and act as the creator while you provide the Scribe Scrolls prereq; the scrolls will end up as divine CLW scrolls - easily useable by him and no harder for you to use - and then *he* gets to pay the XP cost.)

At this point we have 1 Warforged Paladin, 1 Human Bard & 1 Dwarven Cleric in regards to magic. I'm pretty sure the Cleric is the only one with spells currently.

That is an idea to have the Cleric cast the spells for the scroll. The cleric would pay the XP cost even though I'm doing the scroll scribing?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Pretty much what I thought. So if you failed on one of your 5 CLW's, then you flubbed it and have nothing?

Well, I'd assume you have some pretty paper and ink, but fundamantally, yes.

The design team for Eberron have stated that a spell is innately whatever school/type that it came from, but still not a normal scroll.

Ah - that's a change, then. Keith, earlier, said that they were neither divine nor arcane, which I actually like a lot better. Check with your DM on which way he wants to go.

That is an idea to have the Cleric cast the spells for the scroll. The cleric would pay the XP cost even though I'm doing the scroll scribing?

Maybe.

The trick is the pick the character that will be designated as the item's creator. The creator, among other things, sets the Caster Level and pays the XP cost to create the item.

Depending on your DM's answer to the above, if you're the creator the scrolls will be neither divine nor arcane and you'd pay the XP. If the cleric is the creator (regardless of the answer to the above), then they'd be divine and the cleric would pay the XP. Note that, if your DM likes the new answer about artificer scrolls, you could make an arcane CLW scroll for your party's bard.

If you work together, you'd be limited to however many CLWs your party cleric can crank out on the scrolls plus however many you feel you can emulate (i.e., cleric can provide 4 and you can attempt 4 in order to get a scroll with 8 CLWs on it at the end).

 

[Saeviomagy]

When creating a scroll, the prereqs are Scribe Scroll and the spell to be scribed. If you were to create a scroll of Magic Missile and Acid Arrow, you'd need both MM and AA. I therefore do not see any reason whatsoever to rule that, when creating a scroll with two copies of MM, you wouldn't need MM twice.

When was the last time you saw an item that hand "Magic Missile x 2" in it's prerequisite line? Either a prerequisite is there, or it is not. It can't be there 10 times.

Which, for an artificer, means a big, big risk - if he's creating a scroll of cure light wounds x 5, he gets only 2 chances to successfully emulate CLW. If he fails both, the price of all 5 is wasted. OTOH, it saves a lot of useless dice rolling.

 

[Denaes]

When was the last time you saw an item that hand "Magic Missile x 2" in it's prerequisite line? Either a prerequisite is there, or it is not. It can't be there 10 times.

Which, for an artificer, means a big, big risk - if he's creating a scroll of cure light wounds x 5, he gets only 2 chances to successfully emulate CLW. If he fails both, the price of all 5 is wasted. OTOH, it saves a lot of useless dice rolling.

So you think you only roll once for each spell on a scroll, per day, rather than for each itteration of a spell on a scroll?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

When was the last time you saw an item that hand "Magic Missile x 2" in it's prerequisite line? Either a prerequisite is there, or it is not. It can't be there 10 times.

Where was the last time you saw explicit rules on scribing the same spell more than once onto a scroll?

I direct you to:

The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells.

So, if I'm making a scroll of MM and AA, the act of writing the MM portion triggers my prepared MM spell, meaning it is no longer available. The act of writing the AA portion triggers my prepared AA spell, meaning it is no longer available.

By extension, the act of writing the first MM portion triggers my prepared MM spell, meaning it is no longer available. In order to write another MM portion, I need MM prepared again.

Which, for an artificer, means a big, big risk - if he's creating a scroll of cure light wounds x 5, he gets only 2 chances to successfully emulate CLW. If he fails both, the price of all 5 is wasted. OTOH, it saves a lot of useless dice rolling.

... I think you mean, "Which, for an artificer, means a smaller risk than requiring 5 rolls."

Do you want me to do the math for you, or do you believe me?

 

[Saeviomagy]

By extension, the act of writing the first MM portion triggers my prepared MM spell, meaning it is no longer available. In order to write another MM portion, I need MM prepared again.

The act of writing THE SCROLL triggers your MM spell. The fact that there are multiple spells on the scroll is largely irrelevant. Furthermore, your previous example is flawed to begin with - simply put, there aren't even HINTS on how to handle multiple spells on a single created scroll. You've made your example up based on what you think the rules SHOULD be (and personally, I agree with you on that example), and then extrapolated to cover something else (badly, I might add).

... I think you mean, "Which, for an artificer, means a smaller risk than requiring 5 rolls."

Do you want me to do the math for you, or do you believe me?

Doing it your way, you get 5 rolls, each of which may be rerolled, and each of which only affects the spell that it's being applied to - not the scroll as a whole.

My way you get one roll and one reroll, and each affects the scroll as a whole.

Mine is an all-or-nothing affair. Yours is success by degrees. They're both much of a muchness, except that mine would require a maximum of 2 rolls to scribe a scroll with (say) 80 cure light wounds on it, while yours would potentially require 160.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The act of writing THE SCROLL triggers your MM spell.

Yeah, I'm willing to buy that; like I said earlier, I'm not entirely sold on the "1 spell / preparation per 'charge'" reading. Perhaps a better way would be to look to wands, which require (at low-levels, anyway) one expenditure of MM (CL1) for 50 charges of MM (CL1).

Of course, that could be metaphysically explained as the difference between spell trigger and spell completion items, but it's also a way to look at it.

Furthermore, your previous example is flawed to begin with - simply put, there aren't even HINTS on how to handle multiple spells on a single created scroll.

Well, yes, there are - check the magic item section on scrolls, and you'll see that the vast majority of randomly generated scrolls have more than one spell on them, and the vast majority of those won't have the same spell multiple times.

You've made your example up based on what you think the rules SHOULD be (and personally, I agree with you on that example), and then extrapolated to cover something else (badly, I might add).

Could you explain a bit?

Doing it your way, you get 5 rolls, each of which may be rerolled, and each of which only affects the spell that it's being applied to - not the scroll as a whole.

I think you misread me:

If you fail to emulate CLW five times, you're also done. The rules on partial successes are pretty harsh, however - you ruin a portion of your materials and have to start over from scratch.

and ...

Pretty much what I thought. So if you failed on one of your 5 CLW's, then you flubbed it and have nothing?

Well, I'd assume you have some pretty paper and ink, but fundamantally, yes.

So, no starting out attempting to make a 5 "charge" scroll and ending with a partially successful 3 "charge" scroll. It's an all or nothing affair. My way makes it easier to make a 1 "charge" scroll than to make a 3 "charge" scroll.

except that mine would require a maximum of 2 rolls to scribe a scroll with (say) 80 cure light wounds on it, while yours would potentially require 160.

Well, that's not quite true.

An 80 "charge" scroll of CLW would take two days to create. Accordingly, the guy making one roll for the entire CLW prereq would need to succeed on either day 1 or day 2, and if he failed, could try once more on day 2. He's got three chances to fail.

Under mine, he'd get 80 chances on day 1 to fail, would get a second shot on the spells he didn't succeed at on day 1 on day 2, and would get a last-ditch attempt on day 2 to complete any he hadn't made yet.

As an example, let's assume he's got a 10% chance to fail any given roll.

Under your methodology, the artificer can make an 80 "charge" scroll ~99% of the time.

Under my methodology, the artificer can make an 80 "charge" scroll ~48% of the time.

At 15% chance of failure, he's successful 98% of the time under your method, and only 20% of the time under my method.

At a 50% chance of failure, he's successful 80% of the time under your method, and is so certain to fail under my method it's statiscally ignorable.

I like the way my numbers work better ...

 

[Kaodi]

Scrolls

Hmmm... A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. That little sentence is taken from the SRD, and I think it implies that the part of a scroll that holds the magic is the actual writing of the spell itself, not the material it was written on. So multiple spells is really a question of " Is the magic of the scroll held in all of the spells together, or each one individually? " If the answer is all together, either you succeed on the item or you fail, all or nothing. But if the answer is individually, it means that if you fail spells A and C of a scroll with spells A, B, C, D and E, you still have a scroll with spells B, D and E.

I think that the *real* contradiction about scrolls, and something perhaps worth houseruling, is that if you have a one page scroll with a 9th level spell on it, it takes nine pages to scribe it into a spellbook, and vice versa. Now that, as written, truly makes no sense.

Creating magic items with multiple abilities is just a slippery slope in general. If time is not an issue, by the RAW, you should always create you items one component at a time, because I do not believe it says anywhere that when you try to improve an existing item you run the risk of ruining the existing item. If time is an issue, well, the risks are greater, period.