Artificer with PrC crafting caster level....

[Herzog]

I'm playing an Artificer, lvl 5, and am about to enter the Renegade Mastermaker PrC.

I was looking over the Artificer item creation rules, and found something that rather bothers me:

An Artificer's caster level for creating magic items is equal to the artificer's level + 2.
(so, he can make an item requiring minimum CL of 5 at lvl 3)
There are other rules there about effective caster level for the resulting item, but let's skip that for now.

The problem is:
If I take levels in a PrC, what is my CL for creating magic items going to be?

Is it going to stay at 7? (artificer lvl + 2)
Is it going to go up with caster level? (infusion caster lvl +2)
is it going to be the maximum of the above two? (infusion caster lvl after gaining two caster lvls)

a reference to some kind of FAQ, errata or other rules clarification would help, if it exists...

Herzog

 

[moritheil]

The problem is:
If I take levels in a PrC, what is my CL for creating magic items going to be?

Depends on the PrC rules.

 

[irdeggman]

Unless it states otherwise (like the prestige class in question) different class levels do not stack when calculating caster level.

For example a 1 wizard/2 cleric can not take item creation feats that require caster level 3.

Most prestige classes that have the +1 to spellcasting level also state that it is only for the purposes of spells known and spells per day but other things (like familiar benefits) are not affected. So caster level for item creation would normally be considered an "other thing".

 

[Herzog]

@irdeggman:

That's a rather...extreme way of interpreting the rules...

Are you saying that, for instance, a Wizard 10/Archmage 10 can only create items with minimum caster level of 10 or lower? I don't think I have heard it ruled so strict before. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

As far as the PrC is concerned, it provides +1 caster level for 8 of the 10 levels of the PrC.
The reason I was asking is because of the specific mentioning of the Artificer levels instead of caster levels in the Item Creation section of the Artificer class, and the special +2 on caster levels artificers get when creating magic items.

 

[moritheil]

@irdeggman:

That's a rather...extreme way of interpreting the rules...

That's Rules as Written (RAW).

Are you saying that, for instance, a Wizard 10/Archmage 10 can only create items with minimum caster level of 10 or lower? I don't think I have heard it ruled so strict before. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Archmage item creation is not a good example, because archmage DOES advance casting level, and item crafting is based on caster level. To confuse that situation with the situation of a wizard/cleric - two unrelated classes, neither of which advance the other - is to compare apples and oranges.

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.

To take a better example, mystic theurge advances arcane and divine spellcasting. Does it advance clerical turning/rebuking? No. Why not? Because the class says it advances spellcasting and no other benefit. It really is that simple.

To go back to your question, it sounds like you're making it complicated by considering intent. Questions of rules intent are ultimately between you and your DM. On a rules forum, you should not be surprised to see people strictly judge things by the literal wording of the rules text.

The reason I was asking is because of the specific mentioning of the Artificer levels instead of caster levels in the Item Creation section of the Artificer class, and the special +2 on caster levels artificers get when creating magic items.

I answered before and I will answer again: it depends on the wording of the prestige class. If it advances your caster level "as an artificer" then I see no reason you would lose that special +2 caster level bonus . . . but you also posted that it only advances 8/10 which suggests to me that you don't come out ahead in the long run.

 

[Herzog]

Ok. I think I need to re-ask my question, and add some of the information I know of that you are assuming I don't.

1. Item creation is based on Caster Level. Each item has a minimum caster level the creator of that item has to have before creating the item. (Note that this is not necessarily the caster level of the spells required to create the item.. The spells may be cast by someone else assisting in the creation.)
2. Caster levels of different origin don't stack. if you have Cleric 2 and Wizard 2, your maximum caster level is 2.
3. Some prestige classes increase spellcasting and caster level.
4. increase in spellcasting gained by a prestige class does not increase familiar improvement, bardic music, bardic knowledge, turn undead, bonus spells gained, etc.
5. For the purpose of prestige class requirement and benefits, the Artificer, although technically not a spellcaster, may regard his infusions as 'spells'. In other words, if a prestige class requires caster level 5 and increases spellcasting and caster level of a non-distinct type (increasing arcane or divine specifically would do the artificer no good) than he would be able to take that prestige class at lvl 6 (assuming all other requirements fulfilled) and improve his infusion caster level and progression with each prestige class level.

As with other classes, he would no longer gain other class benefits, such as craft reserve, bonus feats, etc.

Now, to get into the specifics of the question.
1. According to the Artificer's Item Cration text, to be able to craft an item, an artificer may add 2 to his artificer level to fulfill the minimum caster level requirement.
This means that an item with a CL of 6 can be build by a 4th level artificer.
2. According to point 5 above, the artficer caster level improves if he takes levels in a prestige class that improves caster level.
3. According to the Renegade Mastermaker prestige class, at each level except first and 7th:

you gain new spells per day and an increase in casterlevel (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had
also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Now, what is the caster level of an Artificer 5/Renegade MasterMaker 4 going to be able to create magic items? (NB: caster level for infusions is going to be 8):

• 7. Artificer level 5, +2 from the special class bonus when crafting items.
• 8. Identical to caster level, since it is now higher than Artificer level+2.
• 10. Referring to 'Artificer Level' in the item creation description of the artificer was a mistake, it should have been 'artificer caster level'. so caster level +2=8+2

Herzog

ps:
my comment about the strict interpretation was directed at this:

Most prestige classes that have the +1 to spellcasting level also state that it is only for the purposes of spells known and spells per day but other things (like familiar benefits) are not affected. So caster level for item creation would normally be considered an "other thing".

That's not RAW in my book.

 

[irdeggman]

Now, what is the caster level of an Artificer 5/Renegade MasterMaker 4 going to be able to create magic items? (NB: caster level for infusions is going to be 8):

• 7. Artificer level 5, +2 from the special class bonus when crafting items.
• 8. Identical to caster level, since it is now higher than Artificer level+2.
• 10. Referring to 'Artificer Level' in the item creation description of the artificer was a mistake, it should have been 'artificer caster level'. so caster level +2=8+2

Based on the text from the prestige class the caster levels stack.

ps:
my comment about the strict interpretation was directed at this:

That's not RAW in my book.

What are you saying?
My full qoute (paragraph)

Most prestige classes that have the +1 to spellcasting level also state that it is only for the purposes of spells known and spells per day but other things (like familiar benefits) are not affected. So caster level for item creation would normally be considered an "other thing".

If it doesn't say caster level increases but only they get more spell per day and spells known - that is indeed RAW.

But be careful about what the line in the class benefits says (it is a breif description) and what the full text description says. Over the years WotC has been inconsistent in matching the two. Text description trumps the brief table entry.


The case you cite seems to pretty much state that caster level increases. So CL = (Artificer level +2) and then you add in the +X CL from the prestige class. That might be the easiest way to look at it instead of CL = artificer level + prestige class level (and then wondering if the +2 applies to that).

In either case you should end up at the same spot, IMO.