Artificers and UMD

[Zephyrus]

If you figure the average an Artificer will have 4 Ranks, a CHA between +2 and +4. And a +2 Artisan Bonus for anything that they have a creation feat for. So thats a +8 to +10 at 1st level to do a DC 21 Check to create a 1st level Scroll. Skill Focus at 1st level is an excellent choice bumping the Artificers check to +11 to +13. Since scrolls take only 1 day the Artificer would have 2 chances to make the scroll (1 per each day plus the last chance).

Look at a 5th level artificer with 8 Ranks making magical weapons with a Caster level of 7th requirement (DC 27). 8 Ranks +2 (artisan) + 2-4 (Cha) which brings it up to a +12-14 which might be a little bit rough w/o Skill focus (+15-+17).

In general it appears that the checks are ment to have a roll of 10-11 assuming the character has skill focus (UMD) if trying to create something at the highest caster level they are capable of. Fortuantly.. the more expensive the item is the more chances you have to make that 50% chance of success UMD check.

Edit: Oh Yeah, I forgot about Skill Synergies from Spellcraft and Decipher Script.. that would pump your checks by +2 as well.. but require 5 ranks to pull off so at the earliest be 2nd level.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Hah - but whats the point in making all these cool wands and staves and scrolls if your not going to be able to effectivaly use them?

The same point that there is in a bard (a d6 hit die, medium BAB, light-armor-only class) having the ability to confer direct combat bonuses by using bardic music.

Artificers are support characters; like bards, their major talent lies in providing enhanced combat and other abilities to the other members of the party, thus boosting the power of the party as a whole. UMD is really a side ability of the class.

That said, I'd prefer to give artificers the ability to substitute their Int modifier for their Cha modifier to the skill check for UMD. To me, UMD for rogues and bards essentially involves "bluffing" an item to think that you're the right person to use it. In the case of the artificer, the UMD ability seems to come from their knowledge of magic items, which strikes me as an Int kind of thing. Making Int the artificer's key ability for UMD would also boost the power of the class a little, since it would reduce the need for multiple ability dependency.

 

[Zephyrus]

Artificers are support characters; like bards, their major talent lies in providing enhanced combat and other abilities to the other members of the party, thus boosting the power of the party as a whole. UMD is really a side ability of the class.

I would disagree that its a side ability mainly because it is THE skill that the Artificer will focus on no matter what else. They use it for nearly everything they do.

I agree they are like bards. They are support enhancement characters. Their Poor base Attack makes them lousy fighters.. but they can wear medium armo (Mithril Full Plate anyone?) and they can enhance the heck out of their items to make up for it (Boots of Haste plus a Bow of Truestriking = One accurate bow-shot).

That said, I'd prefer to give artificers the ability to substitute their Int modifier for their Cha modifier to the skill check for UMD. To me, UMD for rogues and bards essentially involves "bluffing" an item to think that you're the right person to use it. In the case of the artificer, the UMD ability seems to come from their knowledge of magic items, which strikes me as an Int kind of thing. Making Int the artificer's key ability for UMD would also boost the power of the class a little, since it would reduce the need for multiple ability dependency.

My vote would be against this mostly because CHA issent just bluffing but like sorcerers is a matter of force of will/personality... almost like your Intellegent Item's with their Ego scores.

Another reason why I would vote against is that then it would stack too much emphasis onto Intellegence. Intellegence issent as important to an Artificers Infusions as it is to Wizard's Spells. Int is important to an Aritificers Skill points but Its not important to for an Artificer to have high save DC's.

Bonus infusions are nice but in all liklyhood Bonus spells for high ability scores favor Wizards who have up to 9th level spells. Artificers might get an extra 1st and possible 2nd level infusion out of a high Intellegence score but that is truely secondary to a high Cha modifier to interface with UMD.

If you compare Artificers to Rogues... Compare this. A Rogue will favor Dexterity (AC, Hide & Move Silent) and Intellegencce (Skill Points, Disable Device & Search).

An Artificer would sacrifice Dexterity (Medium Armor Profiency allows for 'decent' dex but doesnt need to be extra ordinary, that and they dont have much in Dex based skills) for Charisma (primarly for Use Magic Device)

I've got thoughts for two different Artificers. a Human and a Warforged. The Human can take Skill Focus (UMD) and Magical Apptitude at 1st level. The Warforged could take Skill Focus (UMD) or Mithril Body at 1st level. With Mithril Body they'd have a decent/improved AC and they could always get Skill Focus later. With all the Bonus Feats that the Artificer will get you'll (belive me!!) be wondering what to do with them all!

Metamagic's will be the most annoying Feats to choose between.. cause as you start getting up their you'll get special abilities that allow you to Metamagic up items... but only if you've got the Metamagic Feats first. Not to mention that it takes the metamagic feats to make metamagic rods.

 

[Kabol]

Well - i have changed my mind on the subject a little bit after hearing from K.B. ( Eberron Creator ) in the Ask Keith Baker thread.

I still dont agree that one should have to sink 2 feats into the skill to make it psudo-relaible, But I agree now that is really is a skill and not an ability. So most likely I will give artificers a straight up +5 to UMD skill < skill focus + Magical Apptitude,being the must have feats >. This allows them to reliably be able to use one of thier primary skills with out having to dump feats into it. But allowing them TO dump feats into it if they choose to focus more on the Useing/creating aspect of the class.

 

[Patlin]

At about level 3, an Artificer can (and should IMO) craft himself a circlet of persuasion. Yet another +3, as UMD is a charisma based skill.

 

[Zephyrus]

@ 1st level 4 Ranks +2 Cha + 2 Artisan Bonus = +8 vs DC 20 or 20+CL (+0 to +3)
@ 2nd level 5 Ranks +2 Cha +2 Artisan Bonus +2 Synergy = +11 vs DC 20 or 20+CL (+0 to +4)
@ 3rd level 6 Ranks +2 Cha +2 Artisan Bonus +2 Synergy +3 Skill Focus = +15 vs DC 20 or 20+CL (+0 to +5)

The Above assumes only a 14 Charisma (+2 Charsima Modifier). Its entirely possible to have a +3 or even +4 Modifier with a 16 or 18 ability score. If the above was a Human Sorcerer and I had a 18.. I'd have it in Charisma. That would increase the above Cha bonus's from +2 to +4 making it a +10 at 1st level and without using any feats. That is roughly a 50% chance of success of using the use magic device skill to activate a Wand or a 45% chance to use a Caster Level 1 Scroll. You'd also have two chances at 45% chance of success to create a Caster Level 1 scroll.

At 2nd level your bonus increases by +3 (+1 Rank and +2 Synergy). A Artificer should reasonably have 5 ranks in Spellcraft in order to get the UMD synergy. Your able to make potions now but fundamentally your DC's are still roughly the same. DC 20 to use a wand or 20+Caster Level to Use or Create a scroll or brew a potion. With a Charisma modifier of +2 this makes Caster Level 1 checks a 10 or better. a 8 or better with a Cha modifier of +4. In both brewing and scribing scrolls it takes 1 day so you'd have 2 chances to emulate.

At 3rd level your bonus would increase by +1 more unless you too Magical Appritude or Skill Focus (UMD). at 3rd level these are not unreasonable to take. Expecially when you'll get several bonus feats for Metamagic and Artificer Feats. with Skill Focus (UMD) and a +2 Charisma your looking a 10 or better to create Caster Level 5 Scrolls, Potions and Wonderous Items! That means on a 55% chance of success to make Scrolls of Fire Ball (Admitantly they'd only do 3d6 each but you could still make them). Lower level scrolls, potions and items are almost a sure thing with a +15 bonus. With a 18 Charisma thats a +17 bonus (+14 w/o Skill Focus).

It, and I Think I've said it before.. it appears that Crafting Items at your Highest posiable crafter level (since its your level +2) generally results on average of needing a 10 or 11 to succeed and having at least 2 chances to do so minimum. More chances once your making wonderous items that cost more than 1000gp as it takes more than one day to make them.

As far as the Metamagic Spell Trigger and Spell Completion. by the time you get the class abilities you'll have a Use Magic Device Skill capable of meeting the DC's nessisary to use them with a moderate to high chance of success depending on the metamagic your using.

Also.. consider this... A wonderous item could be made for 2,500gp that would give a +5 bonus to UMD rolls (Skill Modifier squared x 100gp, Compare to Ring of Jumping). a +5 Bonuns to UMD is HUGE! in the hands of a Artificer. Be careful of handing out or allowing one to be made.

 

[Staffan]

Also.. consider this... A wonderous item could be made for 2,500gp that would give a +5 bonus to UMD rolls (Skill Modifier squared x 100gp, Compare to Ring of Jumping). a +5 Bonuns to UMD is HUGE! in the hands of a Artificer. Be careful of handing out or allowing one to be made.

I'm thinking that one reason they put the UMD DCs so high for making items was that they figured any artificer worth his salt would make a +5 UMD item ASAP upon reaching 3rd level (and gaining the ability to Craft Wondrous Items). The question is, what sort of item would it be? There's no item slot that immediately jumps out and says "I'd be great for UMD!". The ones I'd consider are: Headband/helmet (Mental Improvement), Hat (Interaction - you're persuading the item to do its stuff), Cloak/cape/mantle (Transformation - you're transforming yourself to something which can use the item), Amulet (discernment - you figure out how to use it), and Vest/vestment (class ability improvement). I could also see an argument for gloves, though Quickness doesn't apply as an affinity - since you're probably using your hands to manipulate the item.

I think the ones that closest match are headband and vest, though none fit as good visually as gloves do.

 

[Scion]

googles? see the motes of magic floating around the item you are trying to use and see their secrets?

I think that an ioun stone that orbited you and the object you were trying to use would be cool.. orbits around you, then orbits around object, then you, then object.. etc.

 

[Staffan]

googles? see the motes of magic floating around the item you are trying to use and see their secrets?

I think that an ioun stone that orbited you and the object you were trying to use would be cool.. orbits around you, then orbits around object, then you, then object.. etc.

Goggles don't have a suitable affinity either (they're supposed to affect "vision", which I have big problems getting to match with UMD). Ioun stone would work, but that would cost double. In that case, I'd just as soon make it gloves and charge 50% more instead.

 

[Zephyrus]

Goggles don't have a suitable affinity either (they're supposed to affect "vision", which I have big problems getting to match with UMD). Ioun stone would work, but that would cost double. In that case, I'd just as soon make it gloves and charge 50% more instead.

Asside from a few wonderous items like the Boot's & Cloak's of Elvenkind, Gloves of Swimming and Climbing and Boot's of Striding and Leaping... the type of magic items that provide a straight bonus to a skill is frequently Rings. Forge Ring creation feat puts you caster level up higher as well. Ring of Jumping is only +5 but theirs a greater version that costs a whole heck of alot more but provides a whole heck of a bigger bonus.

Since a UMD Skill boosting magic item doesnt exit yet... I'd be VERY catious creating one. I would strongly suggest that such an item be a Ring or a Rod thus pushing the accessability of one off a little bit making it a little harder to acquire at lower levels (otherwise you'd have all kinds of characters all over Eberron with these puppies!). While a ring or rod might not nessisarly push the cost up, it would push the caster level and item creation feat requirement up. Worse comes to worse, make the spell required to make such an item a 3rd, 4th or 5th level spell thus pushing the caster level required to make the item up.