D&D 5E As a DM [..] GWM are overpowered? (cont'd actual calculations)

[Krachek]

The "power attack" mechanics have always been a tricky one.
It's efficiency vary depending on the accuracy and base damage.

It can be crappy, resulting in negative damage boost,
But it can also be insane, giving a full boost of damage without penalty.
The later becoming the more and more the usual situation.

What we need is an alternative mechanic.

 

[ccs]

But the psycological and immersive impact of a maximum-damage hit is another big problem of the feat for me. That is, the way the feat allows even a first level character to deal 23 points of damage in one go wrecks world verimilitude, at least for me.

This is best shown by two examples:

First, the issue where you are trying to break a chain, or other object with hardness. Where a failed try simply wastes some time.

In previous editions you might say the lock, or the door, or the bars of iron have an easy AC but a hardness of perhaps 10. The assumption is that you would need a few good whacks even with the largest of weapon to chip away at the object's hit points, nicely simulating how it might take you a couple of rounds to axe your way through the object, or hammer away until it breaks.

But a game feature that allows you to deal +10 damage utterly destroys those assumptions and makes it trivial to bust open the manacles or chest in a single solid hit.

You have something against me doing exactly what I've seen heroes do in countless action movies??

 

[mellored]

Sorry but the first part is something we will address in the calculations.

I'm don't thnk there's any safe assumption for that.
How much damage would using command instead of bless do?
How much damage does polymorph count instead of greater invisibility?

The second part is just facetious. Yes they could. And the monster could have AC 18. In both those cases you don't use the feat. But I certainly hope you aren't suggesting all creatures with AC 12 have 5 hp?

Not at all.
But how often do you not use the feat?

 

[shoak1]

Actually that's a very good point. Looking at the DMG's table for calculating CR you can work out how much a NPC's CR changes by using the feat. I'm going to use a +9 modifier not because of any stat calculations, but because both 9 and 4 have one fixed CR level.

A DPR of 99-104 has an expected attack bonus of +9. CR 16.
An attack bonus of +4 has an expected DPR of 21-26. The actual DPR will be 109-114. CR 10.

So without any mitigating circumstances, Sharpshooter/GWM are bad for a NPC's Challenge, at least, at middle levels. Multiattack mitigates it slightly, but only by a level or two.

I think also this is an interesting and productive way (using the DMG CR guidelines) of analyzing GWM's effects, but I'm gonna take it in a slightly different direction.

GWM has been demonstrated to add a maximum of 45% average damage, under ideal conditions and using synergy bonuses w/ADV, etc. At its low end, it could cost you as much as 15% damage vs taking STR buff instead. So lets say that on avg it gives a 15% damage buff

If we look at the CR guidelines for damage, a 15% average increase in hp (to counteract the PC damage increase) only means 1 increase in CR. Given that you only get 1/4 of a feat per level, having a feat (GWM) that equates to 1 CR level in effectiveness seems spot on.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Let us first show what the feat can actually do. Then I'll let you decide for yourself if that's something you can achieve with other combinations, and, indeed, if it is a problem at all.

All right, I'll hold my horses... and let you put your cart before yours, as you wish.

 

[Mort]

I think also this is an interesting and productive way (using the DMG CR guidelines) of analyzing GWM's effects, but I'm gonna take it in a slightly different direction.

GWM has been demonstrated to add a maximum of 45% average damage, under ideal conditions and using synergy bonuses w/ADV, etc. At its low end, it could cost you as much as 15% damage vs taking STR buff instead. So lets say that on avg it gives a 15% damage buff

If we look at the CR guidelines for damage, a 15% average increase in hp (to counteract the PC damage increase) only means 1 increase in CR. Given that you only get 1/4 of a feat per level, having a feat (GWM) that equates to 1 CR level in effectiveness seems spot on.

I like this analysis because it begins to look at the entire picture. GWM is a form of specialization - you become better with a specific set of weapons but at a cost, namely when the feat is not viable you are slightly worse off.

This also highlights a sorely neglected part of this discussion! If the guy who took GWM is deprived of the type of weapon necessary - he's worse off than the guy who took the stat increase - and that's ok, that's the cost of specialization.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I just want to say to [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] that I'm a big fan of figuring out the actual numbers first like you're trying to do, so I'm glad you're doing this.

 

[I'm A Banana]

PS. And oh, you might want to switch to another color. Isn't red reserved for mods?

I thought mods were orange?

I thought it was green.

There are many colors in the moderation rainbow.

But typically, Dark Orange text is for "cool your jets" and Red is for "don't make me get the banhammer, son!" And you can tell who is a mod because their names are green.

When I'm feeling sassy, everything is pink!

Oh, and I think for analysis that "rounds and actions lost to getting advantage" is key, and that the resources should be tracked over the course of a 6-8 encounter day with two short rests and a range of encounter difficulties and monster types (easy, medium, hard, deadly, SUPER EFFIN' DEADLY, Legendaries, < 5 levels below > 5 levels above, all that stuff that Actual Play is filled with).

 

[hejtmane]

From game play so far I would say no I have had no issues with these feats. Note rolled stats, feats and multiclass are allowed and any races that have been released in PHB, DMG,EE or SCAG.

Note I do my own magic items and do not give out +tohit on any magic item a +2 sword would be a magic sword that granted +2 damage. I allow the spells like magic weapon to add the bonuses concentration as a balance factor. If I am ramping up the monsters sometimes I will do a simple up the monster's ac by 1 but I have done this when the group did not have either SS or GWM to present certain mobs and make them a little tougher.