D&D 5E As a DM [..] GWM are overpowered? (cont'd actual calculations)

[mellored]

Overall I'd say SS is a bit overpowered with the way it stacks with archery, crossbow expertise, and all the advantages of Dex. Damage * (Accuracy+accuracy) * bonus attack multiplies together.

GWM is fine though, since it doesn't stack as nicely as GWF and polearm master, and Str doesn't have as much going for it. Damage + damage * (bonus attack or bonus attack). It's more adding and overlap, multipliying.


Possibly switch archery style to +2 damage.

 

[Leatherhead]

Possibly switch archery style to +2 damage.

Archery Style giving +2 Accuracy is a result of Cover giving bonuses to AC.

Replacing the Cover ignoring ability of Sharpshooter (as much as that speeds up play not having to recalculate AC) with something like "You ignore Disadvantage imposed by distance on Long Range Attacks" might be a better option.

 

[CapnZapp]

What class and level is this character supposed to be?

I'm having a Barbarian specifically in mind when I chose Advantage.

The more general answer is "any martial that might consider GWM". So definitely fighters too, and perhaps paladins and rangers too. In the most general sense, it's fine if you envision A and B to be two regular Fighters, such as Battlemasters (since that provides them with their own source of to hit bonuses).

As for level, the example currently is for a low level. But I hope to show that it's possible to gain much even for ACs considered to be "high", at higher levels.

Of course, the feat gets progressively easier to abuse as you level up, both because AC does not rise as much as your to hit, and because you gain more ways to boost your attack bonus at higher levels.

Still, I figured I needed to start off by showing the feat's impact already at low levels.

 

[CapnZapp]

Agreed. Even a cleric who cast bless is not going to be using the action to cast sacred flame.
And even pre-casting means he's 1 slot less for something else (foresight vs meteor swarm).


Also, creatures with 12 AC could have 5 HP. So using GWM won't actually do more damage.

Sorry but the first part is something we will address in the calculations.

The second part is just facetious. Yes they could. And the monster could have AC 18. In both those cases you don't use the feat. But I certainly hope you aren't suggesting all creatures with AC 12 have 5 hp?

 

[CapnZapp]

I'll repeat my response from the other thread to you in this thread (if that makes sense:

OK - so first, it seems now we agree on what I said earlier, which is that at best (vs AC 12, with advantage, and against a low AC mob) you only get about a 4 average damage increase w/GWM.

As for the 40% increase, I think to be fair, that is misleading. First because any damage buff at a low level when expressed as a +x% is going to sound OP (OMG! my mage just got a +1 dagger and his dps went up 100% - yay!!! sic). How about when you are 20 STR w/a +2 weapon and your avg dmg.is 14? Now its 28%.

And baddies' AC and hp go up in somewhat proportionate patterns. So if the AC is as low as you mention, there hp are going to be lower and your "bigger chunk" damage is more likely to produce overkill. Now I know overkill can be mitigated by cleave to some extent, but it is merely mitigated a bit, not eliminated as a soak to avg damage.

Examples:
vs Orcs w/AC 13 and 15 hp, you win - no likely overkill and low AC - also GWM allows you to 1 shot him, and cleave lets you get a second whack maybe - perfect opponent
vs ANKYLOSAURUS w/AC15 and 68 hp - overkill is a dicey affair, and AC weakens GWM's effectiveness
vs Will-o-wisp w/AC 19 and 22 hp, overkill is an issue, and the high AC means GWM=suck
vs Ghoul w/AC12 and 22 hp, overkill is an issue, but low AC helps GWM
vs Hill giant w/AC 13 and 105 hp, no real overkill problem here vs this big bag of hp, and low AC makes this a good target of GWM

Also, as had been said previously, many feats, powers and spells are more deadly in combinations. You have Advantage in your example, something very effective as a combo w/a lot of feats and powers. I think in the case of SS/archery its a bit more clearly low hanging min-max fruit, but GWM is a bit harder to make that argument for. I would argue there are hundreds of other equivalently deadly combos, both for players and DMs.

We'll get there. Saying stuff like "AC weakens GWM's effectiveness" isn't nearly as effective as actually doing the math, since all it does is suggest GWM is not that effective after all, without saying anything substantive.

The idea is to present some actual practical cases, and then letting every DM decide for her own. I'm sure GWM loves hill giants, but I have never pitched one against my players.

For me it didn't take long to experience the great damage disparity, where you never feel justified for taking +2 STR (for picking a weapon not compatible with the feat).

In our comparisons we are comparing a greatweapon with and without the feat for a clean compare. But in reality this downplays the effects of the feat, since the real choice point is "do I select one or two swords and +2 dex" or "do I select a greatweapon and GWM".

Still.

PS. And oh, you might want to switch to another color. Isn't red reserved for mods?

 

[CapnZapp]

All math showing what a combination of different possible character traits and abilities can do is irrelevant in determining if something is "over-powered" until we establish an agreed upon acceptable margin by which characters or features working in concert can increase performance - because we can't know if something is actually "over" that threshold until we establish said threshold.

Hold your horses Aaron.

Let us first show what the feat can actually do. Then I'll let you decide for yourself if that's something you can achieve with other combinations, and, indeed, if it is a problem at all.

I mean, we could theoretically have a game two players that both select to play fighters. The first goes with a dagger and STR 8. The other minmaxes GWM. One will probably do ten times as much damage as the other. But if that is not a problem with either player, everything is fine.

In that game.

It does not mean other players will be as carefree about their performance relative to other players playing comparable character builds.

 

[shoak1]

PS. And oh, you might want to switch to another color. Isn't red reserved for mods?

I thought mods were orange?

 

[Yunru]

I thought mods were orange?

I thought it was green.

 

[CapnZapp]

First issue: accuracy and representation.

It seems nobody have found any errors in what I have put forward so far. Great.

The next step is to illustrate how the AC cutoff point can be increased at higher levels, for the purpose of shattering the belief GWM is only useful for the lowest ACs.

But my second point is something else.

By necessity, we are only discussing average damage here, because that is the proper way of assessing game balance.

But the psycological and immersive impact of a maximum-damage hit is another big problem of the feat for me. That is, the way the feat allows even a first level character to deal 23 points of damage in one go wrecks world verimilitude, at least for me.

This is best shown by two examples:

First, the issue where you are trying to break a chain, or other object with hardness. Where a failed try simply wastes some time.

In previous editions you might say the lock, or the door, or the bars of iron have an easy AC but a hardness of perhaps 10. The assumption is that you would need a few good whacks even with the largest of weapon to chip away at the object's hit points, nicely simulating how it might take you a couple of rounds to axe your way through the object, or hammer away until it breaks.

But a game feature that allows you to deal +10 damage utterly destroys those assumptions and makes it trivial to bust open the manacles or chest in a single solid hit.


Secondly, let's play with the idea that NPCs too get to take feats. Now there is simply no more effective way of putting fear into the party than to give GWm to your orc warriors or NPC berserkers. Suddenly their damage potential shoots up from 13 to 23! That they might fail more isn't really helping. Their criticals go from 16 to 26 on average!


Again, this isn't directly related to the opportunity cost of (not) taking the feat. Just so we don't stare blindly at average damage, when the feat considerably increase the maximum (and the swinginess) as well.

 

[Yunru]

Actually that's a very good point. Looking at the DMG's table for calculating CR you can work out how much a NPC's CR changes by using the feat. I'm going to use a +9 modifier not because of any stat calculations, but because both 9 and 4 have one fixed CR level.

A DPR of 99-104 has an expected attack bonus of +9. CR 16.
An attack bonus of +4 has an expected DPR of 21-26. The actual DPR will be 109-114. CR 10.

So without any mitigating circumstances, Sharpshooter/GWM are bad for a NPC's Challenge, at least, at middle levels. Multiattack mitigates it slightly, but only by a level or two.