Ascension ability questions

[paradox42]

There are no specific rulings about which divine status is supposed to represent what sort of area or region. Krust has said a few things, but when pressed on specifics and comparisons between the modern-Earth scientific vision of a universe and his (necessary) interaction with the D&D multiverse, he has always backed away. And he should, because in the end it always comes down to individual DM choice anyway.

Take me for example. As those who've read my "Crazy Cosmology" thread know, I flatly ignored Krust's recommendations for HD compared against DR, and even DR compared against divine status, when going to beings of Greater Deity or higher status. This was because the official version introduced in Ascension didn't fit with my personal game setting. And I specifically defined the terms "universe," "plane," "multiverse," "cosmos," "dimension," and even "Reality" (the capital R is very important there) so as to link them to the rules for divine and higher beings.

If you want beings specifically to represent planets, star systems, stellar clusters, galaxies, and galactic clusters and superclusters, but then you also want beings to represent the various planes of the multiverse, you really just need to sit down and work out your own setting's needs for yourself, because the D&D rules do not in any way assume the sort of universe we on modern-day Earth are used to thinking about.

For the record, I myself did not presume any sort of divine (or higher) entity represented individual planets or galaxies in a scientific-type universe- I had a single Sidereal representing an entire scientific-type universe, since that is a single Prime Material Plane in the multiversal sense. Then, each alternate Prime/Material Plane had its own Sidereal (there were essentially an infinite number of such planes in my setting, so that's a lot of Sidereals), and there may or may not be a single "Old One" level Entity which represents all Material Planes at once. I never discussed the existence or nonexistence of such an Entity with my players, and the possibility of one never came up in game so I never really needed to.

 

[Mr.Satan]

I believe that for the purposes of the campaign setting I'm in the DM is likely to rule as follows...

Collective Material Planes: First One
Individual Material Plane: Old One
Celestial Body, etc: Elder One

Simply because far too much emphasis is being placed on size ratios when elder ones are supposed to be the embodiments of infinitely sized planar layers, old ones are supposed to be the embodiments of infinitely sized planes, etc.

I fail to see how a finite sized area in a single material plane is in any way equal to an infinite sized are in any other plane.

I'd imagine an Elder One can choose to be the embodiment of a single celestial body, but I truly don't see a being capable of being an entire infinitely sized planar layer being unable to be any lesser area. I can easily see an Elder One being the manifestation of an entire supercluster.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there!

Firstly, I'd say Alter Reality should allow for epic spellcasting.

Greater Deities (or below) can cast epic spells if they have enough levels in that class.

My characters are always in a reality where the known universe (outer space) is just one of many prime material planes that coexist within the same multiverse.

Each universe (outer space) is just as vast and as infinite as a layer of the Abyss or the nine Hells. These material realities (layers of the material plane) each contain many superclusters, many many galaxies, etc.

Beyond this multilayered material plane exists the outer planes, the inner planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and all the other planes of the standard D&D cosmology.

I fail to see how a layer of the material plane in this kind of multiverse would be anything more powerful than an elder one to be honest. Even if it did contain superclusters and galaxies and such.

After all. Technically each layer of the Abyss is an elder deity, yet each layer of the Abyss is also infinite rather than finite.

I fail to see how a finite object can compare at all to an infinite dimensional layer. It seems also arbitrary to afix certain size limitations on what a deity can be the embodiment of in the material plane (aka...outer space).

Is it that on the material plane it's more difficult to be the embodiment of something?

Does the material plane diminish divine influence in some way?

Okay, first things first, the layers are not infinite. The layers mimic the worlds upon which such beings are revered.

So each layer of the Abyss is the size of the planet of your campaign.

Each sentient-habited planet has its own Abyss. If people from one planet meet the people from another, then the personages from the first Abyss will then interact with those of the second.

ie. If Orcus, Demogorgon and Graz'zt are known to your world, then you meet people from a different planet where they worship the Mabden Chaos Gods (from Moorcock) then the two Abyss' kosmically join (like a jigsaw). Likely sparking a war in the Abyss.

So the layers are the size of planets, but potentially the size of every habited planet in the universe joined together.

 

[Mr.Satan]

The layers aren't infinite?

In 3.x the layers of each dimension are indeed infinite. From the Manual of the Planes...

LAYERED PLANES
Infinities may be broken into smaller infinities, and planes into smaller, related planes. These layers are effectively separate planes of existence, and each layer can have its own planar traits. But the layers of a plane have an affinity to each other, and travel may be easier or more common between them.
Layers are connected to each other through a variety of planar gates, natural vortices, paths, and shifting borders.
Access to a layered plane from elsewhere usually happens on a specific layer: the first layer of the plane, which can be either the top layer or the bottom layer, depending on the specific plane. Most fixed access points (such as portals and natural vortices) reach this layer, which makes it the gateway for other layers of the plane. The plane shift spell also deposits the spellcaster on the first layer of the plane.
All layers of a plane are connected to the Astral Plane, so travelers can reach specific layers directly through spells such as astral projection. But often the first layer is the one most hospitable to planar travelers.

There are numerous other examples of them being infinite. So, your cosmology may not have them as being infinite, but the standard D&D cosmology definitely does.

A smaller infinity is still infinity. It just expands from our limited perspective at a much slower pace. :\

Infinite bigness vs. Infinite smallness...etc.

The size of a planar layer in no way hinges upon mortal perceptions. It simply IS. Sure...it's so vastly huge that different pantheons are often unaware of each other, but that in my mind would have more to do with the vastness of infinity than any actual size of anything.

It's still there. It was always linked. It just wasn't noticed by lesser beings until they discovered new territory. Thus...it would actually be infinite.

 

[Hammerheadd]

I always thought the abyss layers aren't infinite in size there are just an infinite number of them

 

[Mr.Satan]

Nope. They're definitely infinite. It's something people keep forgetting. It's a common mistake because when most people think of planar layers they think of something that can be contained. Well...they can be contained, by an object that is also infinite...just on a higher scale.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

I think Krusty's "planet sized" Layers of the Abyss are infinite, as per normal D&D. Simply said, Demonic Rulers can't control such big things and what he refers to is amount of controlled Abyssal Layer said demon have under it's hoof/tentacle etc.

 

[Mr.Satan]

Possibly, but that would also completely change all statements of elder ones equaling a planar layer to...elder ones equal a section of a planar layer, rather than the entire thing, which would mess up his own cosmology.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Yes, but we are not talking about Elder One demon-equivalents. These are, as all Sidereals in Krusty's default cosmology asleep/imprisoned. These embodiments of Planar Layers are indeed capable of "ruling" their respective layers as these are parts of their "bodies".

We are talking here about "lesser" Demon Lords and Princes, on par with normal deities. Do You honestly believe that if ... for example, Orcus had infinite resources in the shape of whole Planar Layer at his disposal, wouldn't he just curb-stomp any opposition of lesser magnitude, say drowning Fearun in "million succubi to one mortal" demons ?

Thus, with particular demon-lord's control over portion of Infinite Layer equal to similar status deity's control over it's divine domain is quite reasonable approach in my opinion.

 

[Mr.Satan]

Actually, this entire time I've been specifically speaking of elder deities being the embodiments of an infinite (not finite) planar layer. The only references I've made to regular demon princes (greater deities and under) have been in reference to Krusty's remark about pantheons meeting each other and causing cosmologies to conjoin...which is a concept I don't agree with.

I don't at all believe that regular demon princes (greater deities and under) and such should be able to control an entire planar layer short of acquiring some cosmic ability.