Aside from Expertise, what are the most commonly acknowledged feat-tax feats?

[UltimaGabe]

So, I've recently started a new 4e game, and, having heard so much about the so-called "feat tax" commonly associated with the Expertise feats, I've decided to take an approach that I've heard others use. As I agree that the feats were most likely made to adjust the differently-scaling enemy bonuses compared to player bonuses, I've decided to ban the feats- however, rather than grant them to players for free (which means that if the players forget to add them, then it screws things up, and it makes the character builder harder to use) I've decided to instead subtract the relevant amount (1 at level 5, 2 at level 15, 3 at level 25) from the enemies' defenses and so on at the corresponding level.

However, Expertise isn't the only feat that is associated with the "feat tax". I'd like to account for the others (for example, I know there's a couple Epic feats that increase your NADs, but I can't recall what they're called or what they do exactly), but I'd like a comprehensive list, if anyone out there has one.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Flipguarder]

paragon defenses and epic defenses.

 

[unan oranis]

Meh, I've heard people also complain that the backgrounds are a "free feat". So they cancel each other out, in my books (not that I agree with either sentiment).

 

[eamon]

However, note that paragon defenses and epic defenses don't scale very smoothly; and it's not clear when you'd hand em out anyhow. Instead, I suggest you simply mirror the expertise bonus: either grant the players a +1/2+/+3 bonus, or, subtract the same amount from monster NAD attacks. To be honest, NAD attacks are rather nasty even at level one, and expertise a little unnecessary so if you're willing to give up perfect symmetry, I'd add an additional +1 to NAD's immediately at first level and skip the first expertise bump(i.e. go +0/+1/+2).

One advantage of your behind the scenes fix is that it's easy to wing it; if you find that players are hitting too often or not enough you can tweak your rules.

 

[Flipguarder]

Yeah but saying skill training or a +2 to one skill, or substituting con for another stat to determine lvl 1 hp is equal to +1/2/3 to hit is just unreasonably incorrect, from a "important feats" perspective.

 

[unan oranis]

Yeah but saying skill training or a +2 to one skill, or substituting con for another stat to determine lvl 1 hp is equal to +1/2/3 to hit is just unreasonably incorrect, from a "important feats" perspective.

True, the issue being that +1/2/3 is so good you "have" to take it - and the problem with that being you no longer have a choice, and suspiciously looking like a shoe horned in math fix to boot.

This is the logic behind the feat tax concept; since you "have" to pick expertise, you now have one less feat, which if the allegedly "off" math was "on" in the first place, you would have been able to make a feat-choice, instead of an auto-assigned feat (expertise).

But among the other heroic feats, the background choice is fairly evenly matched - more than making up for the lack of feat-choices lost from expertise (how many bg's?)... and roughly matching the power of the "lost" feat as well.

But like I said, I neither fully agree with the feat-tax sentiment nor the "free" feat for bg power-creep sentiment. (forgive me for stating my own opposition)

 

[Flipguarder]

I just dont think that any of the backgrounds are as good as any feats, even in heroic.

 

[yesnomu]

Chain for Con Shamans/Con and Cha Starlocks/Str and Wis Rangers can be considered a feat tax. I award it for free in my games.

EDIT: Also, melee training for some Swordmages, Paladins and Battleminds.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

If one is just beginning the game, one should just try the game. Frankly, I doubt the entire feat-tax idea.

 

[unan oranis]

I just dont think that any of the backgrounds are as good as any feats, even in heroic.

Yeah, they're crappier in general. But a few appear as good or better than the lamer heroic tier feats.

From a brief looky-lou in the cb:

once per day initiative re-roll

takes four failed death saves to die

+1 saves vs daze, immobilize, stun, restrained

Not super mega crappy. "+1 to speed when bloodied" might seem like a spicy meat ball compared to these, but not to me. I'd add that "+1 to damage for one turn after hitting with thunder-power" is pretty weak sauce too, though I'd hope it was part of some combo with the other feats...