D&D 5E Assassinate

[MG.0]

It might be bad behavior but it's also a clumsy rule.

I don't think it is clumsy at all. The player declared he is performing an action and nothing has occurred in-game to alter that. The initiative roll is merely an implementation detail needed to resolve the order of the effects of the attack. it's no no different than a player declaring he wants to climb a ledge and after failing his check, deciding he doesn't want to do it.

As far as the Stealth skill goes, it does devalue it. I think [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] was also arguing along the same lines earlier. You can have a stellar Stealth modifier, but it's going to be hampered by your initiative roll which is far less malleable in terms of bonuses. Even if you have a good initiative modifier, that's two checks you have to succeed at in order to use the Assassinate ability.

I somewhat agree here. I think the problem lies with the Assassin ability rather than with the surprise rules, though.

In terms of sudden face-to-face encounters or other surprise situations where the victim can see the assailant briefly before the attack is made, I do think the initiative rule makes some sense. In that moment, both sides are cognizant of each other, even if one was caught with its proverbial pants down. The assailant may gain immediate surprise, but he could be a little slow to act to take full advantage. But in edge cases where the assailant has plenty of time, is undetectable, and the victim is totally unaware, the need for an opposed initiative roll doesn't make any sense. Initiative, IMO, is like any other skill/ability check. If there is no reason to assume the attempt would fail, then why roll?

In your assassin example, there's definitely potential for the attack to go off until it is interrupted by his party members. Just because you may not end up needing the result, doesn't mean it is worthless.

 

[epithet]

The target's ability to know the assassin is coming and act appropriately is handled by the stealth roll. The target should not get a second chance to avoid the assassinate feature's auto-crit with initiative.

If you sneak up on the target, you get surprise. If you get surprise, you auto-crit. Any ruling to the contrary is unnecessarily complex and unfair to the assassin.

 

[Ristamar]

I don't think it is clumsy at all. The player declared he is performing an action and nothing has occurred in-game to alter that. The initiative roll is merely an implementation detail needed to resolve the order of the effects of the attack. it's no no different than a player declaring he wants to climb a ledge and after failing his check, deciding he doesn't want to do it.

Except now the initiative roll is not only determining order, it's also carrying a "last chance" Perception check along with it right after the victim failed the first one. The guard's turn should not mean he automatically becomes more aware of the assassin if he's completely oblivious to his presence unless the guard is a barbarian with Feral Instincts or the assassin must make his presence known in order to strike.

Honestly, I'd use the rules as written for a vast majority of encounters because it's not a bad system. However, it's not one size fits all. You can get strange scenarios like the one I outlined above. As a DM, I could tell that player he was deprived of his Assassinate attack because of a weird metagame rule, yet in the same breath, I'm supposed to tell him he can't metagame the same system.

 

[epithet]

He doesn't yet that is why there is 'surprise'.

He will know once the assassin attacks, which the assassin should do since declaring that intent is what started initiative in the first place.

If another actor can interrupt the assassin because you've decided that initiative is indispensable, then the assassin can change his mind and not take the attack.

If you rule that the attack must be taken, then you should also rule that the attack cannot be interrupted by anything other than an ability (generally a reaction) that specifically mentions the ability to interrupt the attack, and that the attack will have the surprise auto-crit if it lands. In other words, if the assassin is locked into the action the moment he declares it, the action should benefit from any bonus applicable at the instant it is declared.

 

[Paraxis]

If another actor can interrupt the assassin because you've decided that initiative is indispensable, then the assassin can change his mind and not take the attack.

If you rule that the attack must be taken, then you should also rule that the attack cannot be interrupted by anything other than an ability (generally a reaction) that specifically mentions the ability to interrupt the attack, and that the attack will have the surprise auto-crit if it lands. In other words, if the assassin is locked into the action the moment he declares it, the action should benefit from any bonus applicable at the instant it is declared.

Except that is not how the rules work.

If you want the assassin to have a better chance to go first, give them advantage on the initiative roll, if that isn't enough give the guard disadvantage on his initiative roll. Handing out advantage/disadvantage on ability checks like initiative is perfectly within the domain of the DM by the rules.

If not following the rules is of a concern than just give the assassin a 20+modifier result on initiative.

But I wouldn't recommend to anyone to ignore the initiative system as written and allow attacks to happen outside of it.

 

[Lidgar]

It does seem like a simple house rule addresses the stealth assassination scenario:

If attacking a target that has not perceived you, you have advantage on your initiative roll.

 

[MG.0]

I think there are valid points coming from everyone. I am going to think about this for a while. One thing I would never budge on is the situation of a lone hidden attacker cancelling his attack after looking at his initiative roll, assassin or otherwise. That would never sit well with me. If he is in a group, and actions preceding his attack causing him to rethink it would be acceptable though, e.g. his barbarian buddy rolled higher and crushed the enemy, or tripped and fell in a vat of acid, etc.

 

[epithet]

If it just breaks the game for you if someone takes a shot outside of a rolled initiative order, then you can always burn the assassin's reaction as a held attack. Assassin sneaks up on target, is "ready" to attack. You do your initiative thing, then the Assassin goes first with his reaction to take the attack he's "readied," then proceed in initiative order. This means that the assassin will get another attack (or two with a bonus action) in the round, but his reaction is burned so if the target survives the alpha strike and wins initiative he can move away without provoking an attack of opportunity.

The bottom line is that the assassin, if he gets surprise, should get a guaranteed crit if his attack hits. Otherwise, you're screwing the assassin big-time. The assassinate feature doesn't say "if you win initiative," and it is a profoundly lame ruling to declare that the signature feature of the assassin is dependent on the initiative roll.

The rules are guidelines. That's how the rules work. It's up to you, as the DM, to make sure that those guidelines don't get in the way of the game.

 

[Paraxis]

If it just breaks the game for you if someone takes a shot outside of a rolled initiative order, then you can always burn the assassin's reaction as a held attack. Assassin sneaks up on target, is "ready" to attack. You do your initiative thing, then the Assassin goes first with his reaction to take the attack he's "readied," then proceed in initiative order. This means that the assassin will get another attack (or two with a bonus action) in the round, but his reaction is burned so if the target survives the alpha strike and wins initiative he can move away without provoking an attack of opportunity.

The bottom line is that the assassin, if he gets surprise, should get a guaranteed crit if his attack hits. Otherwise, you're screwing the assassin big-time. The assassinate feature doesn't say "if you win initiative," and it is a profoundly lame ruling to declare that the signature feature of the assassin is dependent on the initiative roll.

The rules are guidelines. That's how the rules work. It's up to you, as the DM, to make sure that those guidelines don't get in the way of the game.

Except you can't ready actions outside of initiative either.

 

[Ristamar]

You could place the assassin at the top of the initiative order if any of his fellow party members aren't trying to act before him. Again, only in certain circumstances.