D&D 5E Assassinate

[Arial Black]

If you allow initiave to determine when surprise ends, then it isn't literally hearing the "Bang" that allows the target to be unsurprised if he beats the assassin's initiative. Narratively it's perfectly acceptable to suggest the assassin gave himself away during the process of attacking. So yes, the the assassin was stealthy enough to surprise the target, but he was too slow or clumsy on the actual attack. The target notices the attack in progress and can react.

The bolded part is a big problem.

What determines (in rules terms) whether the assassin gives himself away or not is the result of a contested ability check, usually Stealth/Perception.

Your assertion that 'the assassin gave himself away' assumes that he does give himself away no matter how skilful, and that the determinant of whether he gives himself away is not his great stealth nor the victim's poor perception, but who rolled the highest initiative! That if the assassin rolled a high initiative then he's stealthy and if he rolled a lower initiative then he's not stealthy?

Initiative has no bearing on stealth, conceptually OR in the rules.

 

[Arial Black]

This is not what you've been saying.

Your interpretation of the rules is that you cannot simultaneously both notice a threat and be surprised. You have said that if you begin the combat surprised and then notice a threat you become "unsurprised". You've said this ad nauseam.

The problem with this is that the rules say that you do notice the threat when you are hit or missed by an attack. Not after the attack, but when you are attacked. The moment the bullet hits, the victim notices the assassin, and by your reading is no longer surprised. Therefore, the attack will not auto-crit, because the attack is not hitting a surprised creature.

Now you are saying that you become unsurprised a moment after you notice a threat, or are you ignoring the above-cited rule and saying that the threat is noticed a moment after the attack hits?

You're weaving a tangled web here.

There is 'before the bullet hits (or misses)' and 'after the bullet hits (or misses)'. If you are surprised 'before', then Assassinate will auto-crit.

You notice a threat as a consequence of being hit and damaged by the bullet. Being hit by the bullet causes damage, AND makes you aware of a threat. The bullet has already critically hit you.

It would be absurd to believe that being hit made you aware of the threat before it hit you!

 

[Arial Black]

That is where you went wrong.

Surprise ends once the surprised creatures first turn is over, it has nothing to do with a successful or failed attack.

No such rule.

 

[MG.0]

The bolded part is a big problem.

What determines (in rules terms) whether the assassin gives himself away or not is the result of a contested ability check, usually Stealth/Perception.

Your assertion that 'the assassin gave himself away' assumes that he does give himself away no matter how skilful, and that the determinant of whether he gives himself away is not his great stealth nor the victim's poor perception, but who rolled the highest initiative! That if the assassin rolled a high initiative then he's stealthy and if he rolled a lower initiative then he's not stealthy?

Initiative has no bearing on stealth, conceptually OR in the rules.

The assassinate ability IS linked to initiative. It plainly says so right in the description of the assassinate ability:

You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet.
In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

Stealth is no longer relevant once the assassin begins his attack.

 

[Arial Black]

Sure it wouldn't be the first time in this very long thread. In fact I think it would be around the 3rd or 4th time.

Surprise limits your ability to move or take actions.

After the end of your first turn you are allowed to take reactions.

Reactions are a special type of action.

So if you can take reactions, you are no longer surprised.

This does not follow.

One of the affects of surprise limits your ability to move/act, just like one of the consequences of speeding is that you get fined.

But paying the fine doesn't affect your current speed.

Surprise causes a restriction on your ability to move/act (among other things), but the ability to move/act does not cause surprise to end any more than being unable to move/act causes surprise.

Here is the sage advice response from Mike Mearls that states the same thing.

Yet another great example of why Mike is not the rules guy.

 

[Paraxis]

This does not follow.

One of the affects of surprise limits your ability to move/act, just like one of the consequences of speeding is that you get fined.

But paying the fine doesn't affect your current speed.

Surprise causes a restriction on your ability to move/act (among other things), but the ability to move/act does not cause surprise to end any more than being unable to move/act causes surprise.



Yet another great example of why Mike is not the rules guy.

Pretty sure I am in a parallel universe because I think we already had this conversation. You are wrong and don't seem to be able to understand how wrong you are.

 

[Arial Black]

It doesn't state directly a good many things in the rules. What it does say is.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

That is it, that is all surprise is/does.

But that is not the case. Being surprised also leaves you vulnerable to auto-crits from Assassinate.

Therefore, what happens regarding one of the effects of surprise has no bearing on either one of the other effects, or on 'surprise' itself.

To put it another way, if being unable to move/act caused surprise (rather than being one of the effects of surprise), then suddenly being able to move/act again would mean you are no longer surprised. But inability to move/act does not cause surprise; surprise causes that inability (among other things).

What causes surprise is 'not noticing a threat', and while you do notice a threat then 'surprise' does not apply.

 

[Arial Black]

The assassinate ability IS linked to initiative. It plainly says so right in the description of the assassinate ability:

The Assassinate class feature gives you two things:-

You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet.

This is (albeit indirectly) linked to initiative.

In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

This is not linked to initiative; it is directly linked to whether or not the target is surprised at the time the attack takes place, and his 'surprise' is linked (caused by) his not noticing a threat.

 

[Hriston]

There is 'before the bullet hits (or misses)' and 'after the bullet hits (or misses)'.

You seem to be forgetting about the moment when the bullet hits or misses.

If you are surprised 'before', then Assassinate will auto-crit.

No. Assassinate requires that the creature still be surprised when the attack hits to qualify for critical damage. Being surprised before you are hit, but not when you are hit, does not qualify.

You notice a threat as a consequence of being hit and damaged by the bullet.

No. You notice a threat when you are hit. Taking damage is irrelevant and does not cause you to notice a threat. For example, you also notice a threat when you are missed.

Being hit by the bullet causes damage, AND makes you aware of a threat.

Being hit does not necessarily cause damage. Read the Shield spell again. It shows that you can be hit by an attack, and then missed by the same attack due to the AC bonus granted by the spell, thereby avoiding taking any damage. Being hit and taking damage are two separate events.

The bullet has already critically hit you.

The bullet only does critical damage if you are still surprised when it hits. It hasn't already hit you when it hits you.

It would be absurd to believe that being hit made you aware of the threat before it hit you!

Being hit makes you aware of the threat when it hits you, not before and not after.

 

[MG.0]

The Assassinate class feature gives you two things:-

You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet.

This is (albeit indirectly) linked to initiative.

In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

This is not linked to initiative; it is directly linked to whether or not the target is surprised at the time the attack takes place, and his 'surprise' is linked (caused by) his not noticing a threat.

It depends on how you read it. You are reading them in isolation. I read the "in addition" to mean the second part is on applied on top of the first but only to surprised creatures, meaning it doesn't happen if the first part isn't active, i.e. if the surprised creature has already taken its turn.

Like I said, it comes out nominally easier to run that way and can make perfect sense narratively, so it's the way I choose. Apparently Hriston reads it that way too. I'm not saying your way is wrong, just not the way I believe it is intended to work.