I think you might have the "Turn" wrong
A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. So during the first round the bard would do nothing, his turn was lost by the surprise
D&D 5E Assassinate
- Thread starter Jaracove
- Start date
I think you might have the "Turn" wrong
A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. So during the first round the bard would do nothing, his turn was lost by the surprise
Assassinate works if the other person has no had a turn in combat yet. Since the first round of combat is a surprise round, this allows you to Assassinate during the Surprise round, and then if your initiative is higher to assassinate somebody else before they can react.
In role-playing terms imagine the Assassin gets the drop on 2 guards. She stabs one with her dagger, and before the other one can turn around and yell out she brings her stiletto up and kicks him in the stomach, before darting forward and slicing his throat. Now, one major flaw here is believing this takes 12 seconds.
Each round may last 6 seconds for ease of use, but that includes enough time to move, last out a few times with weapons and generally perform actions that do require that length of time. But if the Assassin merely drops down, slits the first's throat then kicks the second to prevent a cry of warning, she has sufficient time (even if it's only a couple of seconds) to take him down.
Of course, the logic can break down in that an Assassin who gets the drop on a foe can then move 120' to Assassinate a second one just by beating them in initiative. But feel free to come up with alternatives for Initiative, for example:
1. Variant: Surprise as a bonus to initiative.
Instead of preventing people from acting during a surprise round, simply chose to grant those who are not surprised a bonus to initiative. It could be as low as 10 (meaning there's a good chance they go first, but not always), 20 (excellent chance but still allows really aware people the chance not to suffer) or 100 (surprised folks always go last)
2. Variant: Surprise is not a full round.
Instead of allowing a full round of surprise, simply deny them a move action during a surprise round. This means a Rogue could still cunning action to get into position, but very few other combatants could move and attack. You could deny them bonus actions too if you only want people to have an Action and Bonus Action.
Obviously you could also simply deny an Assassin the opportunity to use Assassinate more than once per encounter, but I don't think going quite so far is necessary for a power level.
In role-playing terms imagine the Assassin gets the drop on 2 guards. She stabs one with her dagger, and before the other one can turn around and yell out she brings her stiletto up and kicks him in the stomach, before darting forward and slicing his throat. Now, one major flaw here is believing this takes 12 seconds.
Each round may last 6 seconds for ease of use, but that includes enough time to move, last out a few times with weapons and generally perform actions that do require that length of time. But if the Assassin merely drops down, slits the first's throat then kicks the second to prevent a cry of warning, she has sufficient time (even if it's only a couple of seconds) to take him down.
Of course, the logic can break down in that an Assassin who gets the drop on a foe can then move 120' to Assassinate a second one just by beating them in initiative. But feel free to come up with alternatives for Initiative, for example:
1. Variant: Surprise as a bonus to initiative.
Instead of preventing people from acting during a surprise round, simply chose to grant those who are not surprised a bonus to initiative. It could be as low as 10 (meaning there's a good chance they go first, but not always), 20 (excellent chance but still allows really aware people the chance not to suffer) or 100 (surprised folks always go last)
2. Variant: Surprise is not a full round.
Instead of allowing a full round of surprise, simply deny them a move action during a surprise round. This means a Rogue could still cunning action to get into position, but very few other combatants could move and attack. You could deny them bonus actions too if you only want people to have an Action and Bonus Action.
Obviously you could also simply deny an Assassin the opportunity to use Assassinate more than once per encounter, but I don't think going quite so far is necessary for a power level.
abirdcall
(she/her)
That is simply not how the rules work.
Assassinate gives you a bonus against enemies in the first round of combat if you win initiative. That bonus takes 1 of 2 forms depending on the circumstances (advantage, or if they are surprised, auto-crit instead).
That is what it does.
Well, to start with it's not instead. It specifies "In addition" but that's just splitting hairs.
Now, this is a common mistake that people make in 5th edition, in that they insist "rules are rules" and fail to apply common sense. If you ever see a referee in a sporting match you'd realise that sometimes you must enforce the letter of the law, while other times the spirit of the law is a better fit. With Assassinate, technically, if both sides are surprised then a Rogue would be unable to Assassinate, because the first round of combat would involve absolutely nothing.
But then we get into the realm of spirit versus letter and we would, as DMs, be expected to use a modicum of common sense to determine whether we feel an Assassin should be allowed to Assassinate when both sides are surprised.
Going further, it's up to the DM to determine whether or not a player "has" a turn if they are forced to skip it entirely at the start of combat. Some might decide "well you get a turn if you're held by a spell so sure, why not" while others can freely go "you've yet to react to the situation so sure, let's let the Assassin get a double hit off." To impose your will onto others is why arguments happen all over these forums, players failing to understand that DnD is just like any other game, and fairness is far more important than the rules (Such as helping a 14 year old in Trivial Pursuit more than her 17 year old sister even if the 17 year old complains it's not fair, when it really is).
Now, this is a common mistake that people make in 5th edition, in that they insist "rules are rules" and fail to apply common sense. If you ever see a referee in a sporting match you'd realise that sometimes you must enforce the letter of the law, while other times the spirit of the law is a better fit. With Assassinate, technically, if both sides are surprised then a Rogue would be unable to Assassinate, because the first round of combat would involve absolutely nothing.
But then we get into the realm of spirit versus letter and we would, as DMs, be expected to use a modicum of common sense to determine whether we feel an Assassin should be allowed to Assassinate when both sides are surprised.
Going further, it's up to the DM to determine whether or not a player "has" a turn if they are forced to skip it entirely at the start of combat. Some might decide "well you get a turn if you're held by a spell so sure, why not" while others can freely go "you've yet to react to the situation so sure, let's let the Assassin get a double hit off." To impose your will onto others is why arguments happen all over these forums, players failing to understand that DnD is just like any other game, and fairness is far more important than the rules (Such as helping a 14 year old in Trivial Pursuit more than her 17 year old sister even if the 17 year old complains it's not fair, when it really is).
Bill Steyert
First Post
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/18/how-to-use-assassin-assassinate/
Whether some of you like it or not there is no "surprise round" in 5E. DM determines if a creature is surprised if so then you must also beat that creature's initiative roll. And if your DM is playing as he should, rolling behind a screen, you won't be going all meta and not attempting the attack because you know the creature beat your roll. You take the shot, likely still at advantage, but no auto-crit if you lost initiative.
Whether some of you like it or not there is no "surprise round" in 5E. DM determines if a creature is surprised if so then you must also beat that creature's initiative roll. And if your DM is playing as he should, rolling behind a screen, you won't be going all meta and not attempting the attack because you know the creature beat your roll. You take the shot, likely still at advantage, but no auto-crit if you lost initiative.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
It is after all just a level 3 ability. The assassin however lacks something to increase his ability. Best idea is multiclassing with bard to level to level 3.
Jack of all trades paired with reliable talent and cutting words on top make sure you will be first to act.
Jack of all trades paired with reliable talent and cutting words on top make sure you will be first to act.
CapnZapp
Legend
This ability simply is not as powerful in practice than it might seem on paper.
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G
Guest 6801328
Guest
I'm guessing (haven't done the math) that it would be even better to multiclass 3 levels into champion: approximately doubling your chance of a crit on all attacks (plus the other combat benefits of dipping fighter) is probably better than sometimes having an automatic crit.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
If you go champion, go all the way to level 7. Trading 4d6 sneak attack damage vs 2 standard attacks and action surge and a fighting style might be worthwhile if you know you go up to level 17 at least.
Jack of all trades just comes a lot before the athlete ability.
On the other hand just taking alert might be the easiest way to achieve best results on initiative rolls. Using inspiration is also worth it.
Maybe bard will get even more attractive when xanathar's guide is out. I could see a combination of college of swords and rogue assasin as quite fantastic.
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