Assay Spell Resistance

[Stalker0]

I think in combination with saving throw: none spells its too powerful. There are spells where SR is the only defense, and with this spell there is NO defense.

 

[Nail]

I feel it is a cheap attempt to bypass SR, ....

Perhaps.

It might also be the result of comments from thousands of spell-casting players: "Having my spells just fail over half the time really sucks! ...and then the monsters get a save versus my spell as well!?!"

Besides, the monster could dispel the Assay Resistance, or - heaven forfend - start considering the spell-caster a threat and use tactics accordingly!

 

[zlorf]

Yes, i see

The last monster had SR of 22. The 12th lvl cleric has +22 before the roll.
Unless 1 fails, then the SR is bypass.

Some good comments about the balance of the spell, which i was looking for because its the first time someone has used it.

Cheers
Z

Monsters don't get a save vs. Assay Resistance.

Monsters *do* get a save against most spells you throw at them that also have "SR = yes". Assay Resistance doesn't remove the save, just the SR.

 

[zlorf]

Yes, but there are spells that bypass SR. I dont mind the idea of the spell, but the +10 straight up, seems to make a 50% mischance become a 5% mischange, somewhere inbetween would be nicer, or even +1 per 2 caster levels, still seems attractive.

I just looked at some of the bigger demons with SR 32 (CR 19) a 19th lvl Cleric would still
need to roll fairly low to bypass with this spell. But in saying that, even now save such as dex, ref, and fort are becoming fairly easy for 1/2 of the party around 12th lvl where only 1's will fail.

Cheers
Z

Perhaps.

It might also be the result of comments from thousands of spell-casting players: "Having my spells just fail over half the time really sucks! ...and then the monsters get a save versus my spell as well!?!"

Besides, the monster could dispel the Assay Resistance, or - heaven forfend - start considering the spell-caster a threat and use tactics accordingly!

 

[zlorf]

Ah the acid orbs..yes the party Dragonlexi has these spells, absolutely hammers the constructs, pity another monster suddenly not as tough as it once was.

By the way hows this for a combo:
The 12th lvl cleric in the party can get his AC up to 50+ (i dont have his exact stats but it goes something like this.
WIS 22 and DEX 22 (+11)
Mage spell +4
Shield spell +4
Shield of Faith +4 or +3
Agility Spell that give +10 Dex
Belt of the Monk (add wisdom and dex bonus to AC
Dodge maybe +1
Oh almost forgot Alter Self to Lizard +7 i think
(well something like that

Throw in a +6 to all sav spells

AC 50+ abiet requires a few rounds to buff, not bad.

Add 3 domains, that give Dimension Door, Freedom of movement and Magic (for using mage wands and casting mage spells)

Maybe you can see why i want to look at some of these new spells.

I feel it is a cheap attempt to bypass SR, trivialising one of the mechanics that is supposed to make many high CR creatures difficult to fight.

It is even worse than any silly new conjuration spells which do masses of damage and 'oh, ignore SR because it is conjuration'.

That's my opinion.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Combined with no save spells, assay resistance is too powerful and very poorly designed. The problem with this spell is that it was not considered with respect to such spells. Every single caster out there will have this spell, even if only for the battle vs. the BBEG.

We've used the spell in-game, up to 23rd level PCs. The spell is effective...but not a game-breaker. As you point out, it's only useful against 1 creature, and of course that one creature still gets a saving throw.

This spell strips away SR to the point where it becomes irrelevant. At high levels, SR is sometimes the only defense. So, how is this NOT a game-breaker vs. the BBEG? There is no save vs. assay resistance, unlike vs. lower resistance. Compare the two spells.

...and it's vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

This is one of the most common straw man arguments that is used to suggest a spell is not broken. The return straw man is: "So, we can just reduce the spell level of assay resistance to 0th because it's vulnerable to dispel magic. In fact, reduce all spells to 0th level which are vulnerable to dispel magic."

Obviously, I don't expect you to buy that argument, so don't expect the vulnerable-to-dispel argument to fly either.

 

[Felon]

I think in combination with saving throw: none spells its too powerful. There are spells where SR is the only defense, and with this spell there is NO defense.

Yes, but there are spells that bypass SR.

Combined with no save spells, assay resistance is too powerful and very poorly designed. The problem with this spell is that it was not considered with respect to such spells.

What are you guys talking about? Spells aren't designed with the assumption that all targets have SR, because SR isn't a given. There are 20+ level characters that don't have SR. You guys don't give any specifics about which no-save spells you're referring to, so I can't address them at that level. However, hanging all your hopes on SR is pretty bad to begin with, because thanks to SR's all-or-nothing nature, you're basically hanging you're hopes on the spellcaster being rendered impotent. Flushing one spell after another down the crapper is about as anticlimactic as one-shotting the BBEG.

 

[Felon]

It is even worse than any silly new conjuration spells which do masses of damage and 'oh, ignore SR because it is conjuration'.

"Even worse"? I'm interested in your reasoning here.

So, I can cast assay resistance and then hit a guy with a lightning bolt and bypass that 50% or less chance of success (SR and CR tend to correllate that way), or I can cast orb of electricity and just bypass it automatically (oh, and do more damage on average). In the former instance, it cost me a 4th and 3rd-level spell, and in the latter it cost me a single 4th.

So, how is the former the worse of the two?

All SR-penetrating spells do is put evocation spells back in the game. If you're really keen on just protecting bad guys from no-save spells, maybe that's the solution: have assay resistance's benefits only apply to a certain category of spells (like evocation).

 

[blargney the second]

If you're really worried about SR, Arcane Mastery (CArc 73) is the feat you want. It lets you take 10 on caster level checks. I'd rather spend a single feat than a truckload of 4th level slots and a spell known.
-blarg

 

[Felon]

Perhaps. It might also be the result of comments from thousands of spell-casting players: "Having my spells just fail over half the time really sucks! ...and then the monsters get a save versus my spell as well!?!"

"Can I at least have the spell back when it fails? 'Cuz when the fighter misses his attack rolll, he just gets to swing again next round..."

Besides, the monster could dispel the Assay Resistance, or - heaven forfend - start considering the spell-caster a threat and use tactics accordingly!

Perish the thought. It appears there's a strong sentiment that the "balanced" and "reasonable" situation is for the monster to be able to ignore the caster, who's just farting in the wind. That makes the CR appropriate, after all, which is doubtless no end of consolation to the spellcasting PC's.

/sigh