At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

[DracoSuave]

I can tell by reading this that you have always at least hinted minion status to your players.

You have never encountered a player moving his miniature up to a group of bad guys and being pleasantly and totally surprised when he drops two of them with Cleave.

Naw, I had a druid get pleasently surprised when she first discovered minions existed in the game when she Grasping Tided two of them. The other players were a bit busy dealing with elites, which is what they found to be fun.

See, because I gave clues as to who was what, the players then directed themselves towards the enemies they'd enjoy beating up the most.

The -players- dictated their fun. Not random chance.

Keeping minions a secret, to me, works once. After that, there's no surprise value to finding out they exist in battle.

But then, it's hard not to know what they are, what with them being surrounded by monsters that have obvious and cool effects you can discern with an easy-to-make roll before combat begins.

You are so concerned with your POV that you consider a really fun game element that comes out of the blue as anti-climatic instead of what it really is. I've tried both. I know what I prefer. You should try the sushi dude. You might actually like it.

You don't like minions tho. It's the very -idea- of minions that you rail against, and because you don't find minions fun, you look for ways to make them more than what they are.

It really isn't hard to figure out which the minions are anyways. They're the guys who have no cool powers. Keeping that a secret means having to keep the cool powers secret. Keeping the cool powers secret means nerfing monster knowledge checks.

I don't even see how, with the rules as they are, you CAN keep minions secret for longer than a surprise round.

 

[keterys]

You really get to 'cheat' when you make the DC 15 "Name, type, and keywords" and get results like
Wererat Minion
Kobold Minion
Gnoll Minion
Twisted One Minion
Human Archer Minion

nevermind stuff like
Human Militia
Human Hired Goon
Human Lackey

 

[Turtlejay]

You really get to 'cheat' when you make the DC 15 "Name, type, and keywords" and get results like
Wererat Minion
Kobold Minion
Gnoll Minion
Twisted One Minion
Human Archer Minion

nevermind stuff like
Human Militia
Human Hired Goon
Human Lackey

What about:
Carl
Lenny
Darryl
Darrel
Phoenix

Or even
Sue
Fran
Beuler

What's in a name? Someone in the general thread posted the entire sonnet. . .I'll refrain from doing so.

Jay

 

[Infiniti2000]

You don't like minions tho. It's the very -idea- of minions that you rail against, and because you don't find minions fun, you look for ways to make them more than what they are.

I think this is a good point. KD doesn't even use minions, he uses something else. No wonder his opinion differs so much, he's not even arguing the same thing. Heck, if I also houseruled minions out of existence, I'd probably be singing the same tune!

 

[KarinsDad]

I think this is a good point. KD doesn't even use minions, he uses something else. No wonder his opinion differs so much, he's not even arguing the same thing. Heck, if I also houseruled minions out of existence, I'd probably be singing the same tune!

I do use minions. I use them for big 20+ creature battles. But, the mechanic is lame, so I don't use them often and I don't bother to change the mechanic for those types of battles since I have those so infrequently.

 

[KarinsDad]

Naw, I had a druid get pleasently surprised when she first discovered minions existed in the game when she Grasping Tided two of them. The other players were a bit busy dealing with elites, which is what they found to be fun.

See, because I gave clues as to who was what, the players then directed themselves towards the enemies they'd enjoy beating up the most.

The -players- dictated their fun. Not random chance.

Uh huh.

I don't even see how, with the rules as they are, you CAN keep minions secret for longer than a surprise round.

So, why are you arguing that it's important to let the players know if they are going to know right away anyway?

Your logic here seems a bit weak.

 

[keterys]

So, why are you arguing that it's important to let the players know if they are going to know right away anyway?

For clarity - does that mean that you have a monster knowledge check reveal something is a minion or not?

 

[KarinsDad]

For clarity - does that mean that you have a monster knowledge check reveal something is a minion or not?

Monster Knowledge Checks do not indicate role.

One of the reasons I don't.

From my POV, revealing any of the roles is a houserule. The what knowledge do you reveal section of the DMG does not indicate it either. But that section is fairly subjective in the "what is necessary info" category.

To me, these omissions are glaring. YMMV.

 

[DracoSuave]

Monster Knowledge Checks do not indicate role.

One of the reasons I don't.

From my POV, revealing any of the roles is a houserule. The what knowledge do you reveal section of the DMG does not indicate it either. But that section is fairly subjective in the "what is necessary info" category.

To me, these omissions are glaring. YMMV.

No, it DOES reveal powers.

So.

You have 8 monsters that have 'basic attack' as their power, 1 that has 'basic attack that knocks prone', 1 that has 'basic attack that deals ongoing damage', 1 that has 'shifts when you move adjacent and marks with basic attack', and 1 that has 'lobs fire balls, resistant to fire, heals his friends.'

It's obvious which the minions are. So why hide them at all?

 

[Flipguarder]

It's obvious which the minions are. So why hide them at all?

That's a terribly metagame argument there, and I think you know that.