At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

[DracoSuave]

That's a terribly metagame argument there, and I think you know that.

Not at all.

You're looking at a group of soldiers. Eight of them are armed with standard issue AK-47s. One has a rocket launcher. One has a set of communication gear. One has a hat with the insignia of a lieutenant. One is sitting in a tank.

Which are the privates, and which are the noncoms and officers?

'These guys obviously have tricks these other guys do not' is NOT a metagame argument, it's common sense.

Especially in a game based on the concept of being able to take on armies of these guys and defeat them in one go.

Batman doesn't go 'Oh, these guys must all be supervillains' when he encounters normal mooks. The Bride doesn't flinch when she's taking on the Crazy 88. Heroes don't look at the rank and file and go 'Hey guys, we're out numbered by guys who are probably better than us.' Maybe after the first battle, but after the tenth battle like that?

And that's not even 'once they hit paragon tier.'

 

[Flipguarder]

Ugh come on Draco, these are NOT people with aks and rockets, this is not the crazy 88.

This is 6 orcs and 2-4 of them are wearing less armor then the others. It should not be readily apparent that they crumble upon impact.

I personally use the phrase "they look less powerful than the others" which could mean less hp, lower level or minion status. Much more reasonable imo than "these minions, these ain't

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Actually, I think DS's analogies are perfectly apt - or at least can be, depending on the DM and the story he is telling.

Minions are exactly what DS says - the mooks and cannonfodder of the D&D world. The PC's are the Batman's and Bride's and the whatnot. From a storytelling perspective, its perfectly reasonable for them to know a horde of badguys are their inferiors - or at least have a mechanism (aka the skill check) to know that ahead of time.

Or are you suggesting that Batman actually has to fight the Joker to gather that he's a more challenging foe than the hordes of goons he's punched his way through to get to him?

 

[Flipguarder]

If the joker looks just like those damn goons then yes I do.

You don't automatically know things that wouldn't be obvious just because its convenient.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, I can't disagree with you there, but I do think that the difference should at least be ascertainable. For example, one zombie looks flimsier than another. One goblin is a lot more nervous then the next, or moves with less skill and care. One ork has heavy scarring over his left forearm.

Personally, for me, minions are different for an in game reason. They are NOT the same as their standard monster compatriots. They are less experienced, or less disciplined, or less durable, depending on the monster. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me from a story perspective.

So, a knowledge monster check to determine that the tatoo on the hobgoblin's face means he's a veteran warrior? Sure! An insight check to see that that goblin lacks motivation and is just looking to run away? Definitely! A perception test to see that the leftmost skeleton is barely hanging together? Why not!

Anything less makes for bland storytelling IMHO.

So yes, Batman should be able to tell be observing that Joker is tougher than the goons, and the goon giving orders and the one with the tommy gun are somewhere in between.

 

[Flipguarder]

I agree with everything in that post Doctor

Btw my holistic medicine guy is Dr. Rouhani and I asked him if he posted on enworld thinking it was you lol.

EDIT: All I do in difference is require a skill check to ascertain said info.

 

[Jhaelen]

And yes, I do realise this that this is likely a perception issue, but the battles where it took a while to find out who the minions were did seem to drag compaired to others, and the first few rounds did seem kind of wasted as we couldn't really make any tactical decisions until we knew.

So, at least for me, in the group I played, not knowing was less fun than knowing.

Imho, that's because your group is metagaming too much.

When we started playing 4e I didn't even tell any of my players that there was such a thing as minions. They just noticed that in some encounters some of the monsters were pretty easy to drop.

As a DM I try to keep using game terms to the absolute minimum required. The game's more fun that way, though obviously YMMV.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, I disagree with yoru interpretation, because I believe minions have an in game reason for being different, not just a metagame one.

So, there ought to be clues given by the DM that some of the creatures are more feable/cowardly/whatever than the others.

If there had been such clues, I'm sure I would have been a lot happier.

For me, to have minions be exactly the same description wise yet die with one hit is metagamey, as there is no justification other than the rules for them being as such.

 

[Garthanos]

For me, to have minions be exactly the same description wise yet die with one hit is metagamey, as there is no justification other than the rules for them being as such.

Not having the buffer of luck afforded significant villains and heros, does not make that 7th level minion .... not 7th level or an incompetent or mean they have worse armor than their armor class indicates etc. It means that Avandra or Fate or whatever hasn't favored them setting them up as the foil of heroes. --> However those who are so favored seem likely to become confident and even cocky/arrogant to a degree that it could/should be noticeable.

 

[DracoSuave]

Not having the buffer of luck afforded significant villains and heros, does not make that 7th level minion .... not 7th level or an incompetent or mean they have worse armor than their armor class indicates etc. It means that Avandra or Fate or whatever hasn't favored them setting them up as the foil of heroes. --> However those who are so favored seem likely to become confident and even cocky/arrogant to a degree that it could/should be noticeable.

Not to mention, they tend to have more accoutrements, and the ability to wield powers and magics and all that.

Look at Orcs for instance.

Don't look at their powers. Just look at their equipment. That's what they have.

The differences are plain to see even from the angle of 'That guy's obviously not as well armed as those other guys.'

Look at Rats.

You telling me you can't tell the difference between 1 giant rat, a rat with giant teeth and bones sticking out of it, and a swarm of giant rats.