At what point do players know they're fighting Minions?

My take on it is that a minion is such an inferior unit compared to a normal mob that it should be visually obvious.

Why?

Doesn't the minion have armor and weapons and isn't it threatening?

When did this concept of "the PC is omnipotent" suddenly come in. A monster used to be a monster. Now, it's a collection of stats that somehow mystically inform PCs that one monster is better or different than another. Should we tell which monsters are Elite not on their fighting skill, but on their weapons? Should we tell which monsters are Controllers and Skirmishers and such not on the powers and tactics they successfully use, but on their looks?

Doesn't a Bugbear Minion just plain look tougher than a Goblin Cutter??? The Bugbear Minion doesn't know that it is a minion. If it did, it would never come out and fight. It should be tough looking and confident until the moment the PC Rogue quickly cuts its throat and it falls in a heap on the ground.
 

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1. Minions might be scrawnier than normal for their race.
2. Minions might have haphazard armament or armor.
3. Minions might hesitate a lot and not have the "gusto" of a normal attacker.
4. Minions might not take any action unless directly ordered to by a superior.
5. Minions might attack with gusto, and the same skill as a 6 year old white belt.
6. Minions might be obviously sick or injured.
7. Minions might be adversely affected by their enviornment.
8. Minions might be the 30th example of rabble encountered by the PCs.

That took all of 2 minutes to come up with 8 different examples a GM could use to describe how minions are obviously inferior to their comrades.

DS
 

Because your character notices exploitable gaps in the minions defenses that it doesn't see on other mobs. As you say, a minion doesn't know it's a minion. It's just a minion to the players characters. In other words, for it to be a minion you have to know where to defeat it in one attack, and since you know you can take it down in one attack you know it's a minion.

I could say to the players: "It moves in such a way that you you think you can take it down in one blow", which I often do in a way. For instance: "The crappy skeleton barely holds together, but the claws look kinda frightning."

A bit of circular logic there, but it starts out with the DM deciding that they are indeed minions. ;)

When did this concept of "the PC is omnipotent" suddenly come in
- I certainly didn't bring it up. I believe you did KarinsDad.

It should be tough looking and confident until the moment the PC Rogue quickly cuts its throat and it falls in a heap on the ground.
I agree wholeheartedly with you in this. It just makes perfect sense. The minion might get a hint that it's severely outmatched as it sees it's friends get slaughtered way quicker than it thought possible. On the other hand it might think it's just a streak of bad luck... :p
 

See, I have no problem telling players that they are minions.

So what if the players go 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just minions!'

My players have played D&D since 2nd edition, myself since BECMI. This is hardly a new concept, except instead, we used to go 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just kobolds.' It was the exact same sentiment, and the characters were fully aware of it.

Flash forward to 3rd edition, where some of those kobolds and goblins and such had character classes. Once you defeated the 5th level kobold sorcerer and the 3rd level kobold warriors, the party went 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just kobolds.'.


But now, 4e has taken that -exact same mechanic-, and instead of kobold sorcerer and kobold warrior, it's now kobold wyrmpriest and kobold dragonshield. And when those go down? 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just minions.'

My question then, is why would you want to take that out of the game, when players enjoy that so much? In fact, all minions have done is take that exact moment that players enjoy, and made it accessible across all levels of play.
 

Because your character notices exploitable gaps in the minions defenses that it doesn't see on other mobs. As you say, a minion doesn't know it's a minion. It's just a minion to the players characters. In other words, for it to be a minion you have to know where to defeat it in one attack, and since you know you can take it down in one attack you know it's a minion.

I could say to the players: "It moves in such a way that you you think you can take it down in one blow", which I often do in a way. For instance: "The crappy skeleton barely holds together, but the claws look kinda frightning."

A bit of circular logic there, but it starts out with the DM deciding that they are indeed minions. ;)

You are basing your description not on the capabilities of the foe, but on your expectations as to the outcome of the encounter.

The creature doesn't have any weaknesses until it is hit. Then, an obvious weakness suddenly appears. You are basing your in game fluff descriptions with what will happen if the PC is successful with an attack. You are not basing your in game fluff descriptions with what will happen if the PC is unsuccessful with an attack. Until the PC is successful, the minion is invincible and could kill the PC.

How exactly was the PC exploiting gaps in the minion's defenses if the minion kicked his butt?

He wasn't.

You are rationalizing specific game mechanics with fluff, fluff that shouldn't exist because the PC should be unaware of the game mechanics.


And then problems start occurring when attempting to rationalize the difference between lower level creatures that are easier to hit with higher level minions that are harder to hit, but easier to kill if hit.

It becomes tougher to rationalize game mechanics descriptions at that point. Do you describe the minions as having weaknesses, or the lower level foes as having weaknesses?

"You think this foe has a great defense, but once you get past the defense, he's a paper tiger. On the other hand, this foe is easier to hit, but can stand up to a lot more punishment." WT??? How does this rationalization make sense?


The point is, the PCs shouldn't really have a clue. They should be pleasantly suprised when they single shot kill the monster "You fell for that old trick? What an idiot! That little Goblin is a tough bugger, but this big Hobgoblin walked right into my dagger.". The PC shouldn't know ahead of time that the Hobgoblin, for whatever reason, is going to die quickly.

Any foe could take a single arrow to the throat (assuming it has a throat) and keel over dead. Until the PCs are actually fighting the foe though and see whether it avoids the single arrow to the throat, they really shouldn't know.

The term minion is not a term the PCs know. It's a game mechanic term that players know. Like AC.

Do you tell the players that the foe with the low AC is easier to hit? Do you tell them the foe with the low Will is more susceptible to illusion magic?

If you don't describe these monster game mechanics to the PCs, why would you describe that the monster has 1 hit point?

It's game mechanics information that the PCs should not have until they actuallly learn it firsthand. Just like AC. The PCs find out how hard the Green Slime is to hit by attacking it, not by looking at it.

Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation.

How exactly do the PCs know that the foe's skill, luck, resolve, physical endurance, and ability to turn deadly strikes into a glancing blow are super low?

How do they know that the foe is unlucky??? Do you describe every minion as missing an eye or an ear or a finger? :lol:
 

The DM should make it fairly easy to figure out who are minions for a default 4e game.

Some groups will play it otherwise, because they enjoy it that way.

In both cases, people should probably make sure the way they do it is the way the group prefers. For example, if the DM is hiding who are minions so he can taunt PCs when they use dailies on them, and the players hate it - that's clearly a situation that should be changed, much like when the players want a greater depth of simulation and don't want to know ahead of time and the DM is telling them flat out 'These are minions'.

As long as the table as a whole is enjoying themselves, doesn't matter what they do, it's not 'badwrongfun'. There are just different table practices.
 

See, I have no problem telling players that they are minions.

So what if the players go 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just minions!'

My players have played D&D since 2nd edition, myself since BECMI.

Yeah, a boatload of us have played the game for over 30 years now. yadda yadda yadda

This is hardly a new concept, except instead, we used to go 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just kobolds.' It was the exact same sentiment, and the characters were fully aware of it.

Flash forward to 3rd edition, where some of those kobolds and goblins and such had character classes. Once you defeated the 5th level kobold sorcerer and the 3rd level kobold warriors, the party went 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just kobolds.'.


But now, 4e has taken that -exact same mechanic-, and instead of kobold sorcerer and kobold warrior, it's now kobold wyrmpriest and kobold dragonshield. And when those go down? 'Alright, time to mop up, they're just minions.'

My question then, is why would you want to take that out of the game, when players enjoy that so much? In fact, all minions have done is take that exact moment that players enjoy, and made it accessible across all levels of play.

Enjoy mopping up minions after the kobold wyrmpriest and kobold dragonshield drop??? How old are your players?

I have no clue where you think that mopping up minions is actually a lot of fun for most people. Easier? Sure. Less thought intensive? Yup. Maybe it was a lot of fun when 4E first came out and it was a new novelty.

But a lot of fun???

Admin here. This post is a great example of "badwrongfun." You're welcome to disagree with someone, but berating and insulting them because they play differently than you do is absolutely not okay. Don't do it. If this is even vaguely unclear, send me a PM. ~ Piratecat


As a player, I don't want the DM telling me that #1 through #6 are minions, #7 is a controller, and #8 is a brute.


By indicating which foes are minions and which are not, the DM is flat out saying "These are the type of tactics you should be using".

As a player, that's not fun. Do you want to hold my hand while I take a leak as well???

It's fun when I have a general idea of what's going on and I decide what I want my PC to do. Not when the DM decides a subset of what I want my PC to do.

It's fun when my PC saves the day with a cool tactic, not when it's:

"Oh, the DM said these foes over here are minions. I guess the party expects my Wizard to Scorching Burst them." yawn zzzzzzzzzzz

Mopping up minions? Fun? Most DMs in 1E through 3E would have said "Ok, the BBEG is dead, the rest flee or are wiped out in a matter of moments.". Who the heck plays that out for more than maybe a round?

I had an overland route for my Paragon level PCs the other day and I said "You run into a few groups of deadly monsters in your three day travel, but with your current abilities, you wipe them out quickly and get to Candlekeep without any problems.". Zip. Cut to the chase.

Who has fun killing minions? Fish in a barrel. Might as well be playing Dungeons and Dragonflies. :lol:


You actually have players in your group that say "Oh boy, minions. Watch me mop them up!!!"

Seriously?
 
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Minion revelation is part of encounter design.

When dm'ing first time players, I'll point out which monsters are minions and what a minion is.

Sometimes I'll want minions that are "fronting", pretending to be tough. Or regular monsters trying to hide in the crowd, or look like minions. Now my players might be caught off guard, or maybe I will be the one who gets surprised by how they tackle the problem.

Perhaps the minions are dangerous, but since they're playing the part of faceless mook they go down in one hit (ala sentinals vs x-men). The point of this style is to amp up how powerful the pc's appear.

Sometimes only one of the villains will be a minion, and a rather unique one. Why does the duke of borderlandia have to be buff? He may even appear to be a cut above his cohorts, or actually be the bbeg!

In a typical combat, when shredder shows up and tells his foot soldiers to attack, my experienced players guess - and they're right every time.
However, if one were to ever specifically ask which-witch-were-which, I'd either tell them or perhaps demand a knowledge check.
I'd possibly do the same for monster role, or even stats and/or details on how a power works.

A lot of people in real life would know about a harpies song, or a medusa gaze, and how to overcome them from our own myths of yore.

In a world where monsters were constantly running around I'm sure their strengths/weaknesses could be known, at least possibly.

Skills aren't an exception - phalanxes, parthian archer tactics, mounted charges etc are just a few of well known, distinct skill sets that one could "remember" while in combat.

All the rest of you arguing that there is only one way to do it are missing an opportunity I think.

Overall I'd say the pc's would be able to size up their opponents as at least minion or non-minion.

Chalk it up to basic competence.
 


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