At Will Retraining

[DracoSuave]

No, you can't retrain your Basic Attacks into new At-wills for two technical reasons and one more compelling reason:

1) Cause you can't get rid of them, as you are required to have them.
2) They don't have a class, so you can't retrain them into the same class power. Your list is: Basic Melee Attack, and Basic Ranged Attack. Your option to retrain BMA would be... BRA, but you already have BRA so you can't take it.

But the real reason is:

It's rediculous and an obvious exploit that ignores the game rules willynilly.


You can't take a power from a class that's not your own without something permitting you to. Multiclass feats only allow you to use that class as prerequisites for feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies. Powers are none of these things.

To get powers from those classes you need to take the power-swap feats. No power-swap feat gives you another class's at-will, so the only way to get that is to paragon multi.

What you might be seeing with swapping powers for one class for another is someone not swapping powers, but swapping feats. So, you take the power-swap feat for your encounter power. Later on down the road you want to trade that up. So you swap out the power-swap feat, which gives you your class encounter power back, then swap back in the power-swap feat, this time swapping a different power.

 

[yesnomu]

Thanks all. I figured as much but I was hoping I was wrong as I don't see it being a balance issue (they're just At-wills)

Some at-wills are simply better than others, and they're balanced out by class abilities. For example, the Barbarian's Pressing Strike is better in every way than both the Rogue's Deft Strike and the Fighter's Tide of Iron. But that's ok, because the Barbarian gets neither Sneak Attack dice nor the Fighter's marking and Combat Challenge abilities.

Allowing the Rogue and Fighter to retrain at-wills from their Barb multiclass, however, would both make the classes stronger (Pressing Strike is so awesome), and ensure that their own at-wills wouldn't ever be used.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Thanks all. I figured as much but I was hoping I was wrong as I don't see it being a balance issue (they're just At-wills)

It depends a lot on the build.
Generally it might not be a big thing but I can certainly see problems on individual builds

e.g. an elven archer ranger takes a rogue at will and gets +5 to hit and damage with a shortsword or rapier, possibly attacking reflex
a rogue takes twin strike and improves their odds of getting sneak attack with ranged weapons

Is the cleric power that gives somebody else a bonus to hit str based?
If so it's great for defenders...especially fighters with heavy blade opportunity...

There might also be overlap with charisma paladins and warlocks...
the invisible paladin suddenly gets very playable...

 

[Gruns]

The other multiclass feats.

Just thought I'd point out the "other" power feats that go along with multiclassing. This may be where you saw the crazy power swapping going on? These are all on PHB209.
Novice Power(Lvl 4 Feat): You can swap one Encounter attack power you know for one Encounter attack power of the same level or lower from the class you multiclassed into.

Acolyte Power(Lvl 8 Feat): Same as Novice, but Utility power.

Adept Power(Lvl 10 Feat): Same as other two but Daily attack power.

With these you can mix up three different powers from the class you multi'd into, but not an At-Will. As has already been pointed out, the only way to retrain At-Wills is to forgoe a paragon path and instead choose paragon multiclassing. This also gets you an additional 3 powers (one more of each Encounter, Utility and Daily) from the class you multi'd into. Eventually.

Later!
Gruns

 

[WalterKovacs]

A few reasons why power-swapping "just an at-will" can be "too good":

Paladin with at-will Eyebite AND at-will divine challenge can be quite powerful. A rogue with eyebite at will needs to find cover/concealment to set himself up for constantly creating sneak attack opportunities, especially if he has someone like a warlord to let him get the eyebite out of turn. A fighter can get area effects to mark lots of people constantly. A rogue would love to have something like twin strike to get multiple chances at a sneak attack. A ranger with good dex would be happy to take some rogue powers to have melee attacks that aren't strength based. Any class like the warlock, cleric or paladin would like to have powers that follow their good ability instead of having to take secondary powers, like a starpact charisma based character could grab a paladin power or bard power instead of being shackled with a con-based at-will.

 

[Ibixat]

A few reasons why power-swapping "just an at-will" can be "too good":

Paladin with at-will Eyebite AND at-will divine challenge can be quite powerful. A rogue with eyebite at will needs to find cover/concealment to set himself up for constantly creating sneak attack opportunities, especially if he has someone like a warlord to let him get the eyebite out of turn. A fighter can get area effects to mark lots of people constantly. A rogue would love to have something like twin strike to get multiple chances at a sneak attack. A ranger with good dex would be happy to take some rogue powers to have melee attacks that aren't strength based. Any class like the warlock, cleric or paladin would like to have powers that follow their good ability instead of having to take secondary powers, like a starpact charisma based character could grab a paladin power or bard power instead of being shackled with a con-based at-will.

Meh, Rogues to me are the class voted least likely to ever miss. At level 6 being at +14 on attacks using dexterity or +16 with combat advantage 17 with nimble blade and CA etc you have an already extremely high chance of hitting. Besides twin strike is a strength based attack, if I melee with it and I'd have to be holding 2 weapons and make an attack with each one, or use it ranged which is less likely to have CA than a melee attack would. Strength attacks are really not optimal in any case either, even a brutal scoundrel's strength is at best going to be equal to their dexterity, since only ranger's attacks get the option of dex other than rogues, and to use the dex versions of them it has to be ranged, most rogues would just stick to their own attack categories.

Now if I were playing one of those warlock types that gets into melee and basic attacks all the time I'd love to swap out for a real melee at will, and taking twin strike there would really help with optimizing getting curse damage in.

 

[DracoSuave]

If you think a rogue is restricted in melee or ranged and doesn't dance in and out as is best for him, you're underutilizing a rogue's potential. Twin-strike is great for a rogue that can go melee or ranged. That is to say, all of them.

Flanking is but one way to get combat advantage for rogues, and not necessarily even the easiest. It's just the simplest to understand, which is why it is locked in a rogue's mind. However, with the ease of gaining CA from any number of skills, powers, or feats a rogue has available, you shoot yourself in the foot by insisting rogues must be melee to get CA.

 

[Ibixat]

If you think a rogue is restricted in melee or ranged and doesn't dance in and out as is best for him, you're underutilizing a rogue's potential. Twin-strike is great for a rogue that can go melee or ranged. That is to say, all of them.

Flanking is but one way to get combat advantage for rogues, and not necessarily even the easiest. It's just the simplest to understand, which is why it is locked in a rogue's mind. However, with the ease of gaining CA from any number of skills, powers, or feats a rogue has available, you shoot yourself in the foot by insisting rogues must be melee to get CA.

No I never said that you can't get CA ranged, For instance I play a Drow, I can get CA against anyone I please for 2 rounds every fight with no chance of it not working. Combine that with status's from the group, forcing people prone, daze etc, I am rarely denied combat advantage. Though more often than not the times I am unable to get combat advantage is usually when I'm at range still.

The problem with twin strike is most of us who follow the artful dodger path are going to have a 10 strength and a 20 dex at the start, so twin strike would be +4 vs AC x2 for 1d4 each if used in melee. And sly flourish would be +9 vs ac 1d4+7 or 1d4+8, or make those +6's and +11 with combat advantage.

Oddly enough mathematically having a 5 better chance to hit when swinging once means that rolling twice never actually gives you a better chance of hitting unless you can hit on a 6 or less with the lower mod. If you need say a 10 to hit with the higher mod you'd need a 15 with the lower mod, a 45% chance to miss on the single attack a 49% chance to miss twice with the lower mod, things only get worse as you level up more and raise your dexterity, once you reach epic tier, and have 6 more points in dexteiry for +3 to the mod and only 2 more points of strength you know have a deficit of 7 points on your strength based attack verse your dexterity based attacks.

When you figure the ranged attack benefits of it then sure it's pretty spiffy for that but I'll take my chances with one shot and take a second melee at will that targets a different defense that can often be up to 3-6 less than AC

 

[DracoSuave]

You have that trouble with Twin Strike?

I don't.

*takes two daggers, tosses one, tosses the other, gets the same to hit bonus as the rest of the rogue attacks.*

It -can- be used ranged.

 

[Ibixat]

You have that trouble with Twin Strike?

I don't.

*takes two daggers, tosses one, tosses the other, gets the same to hit bonus as the rest of the rogue attacks.*

It -can- be used ranged.

I know it can be used ranged, I said it can be used ranged and it's good for that, but I also said that I wouldn't take an attack that I'd be using ranged only to get a chance to hit twice when I already have a huge chance to hit on my single attack, and that I'd rather take an attack that will allow me to hit a different defense with an at will. That was just me pointing out that twin strike is effectively a ranged only attack for an artful dodger rogue, since as a melee attack it is more likely to miss twice as a strength based attack than a single dex based attack would.

If through some crazy AC fluke a creature is only hittable by a 18 - 20 against AC, one attack vs ac would give me 85% miss rate, two attacks would still miss on both 72.25% of the time, but if reflex is just 3 points less than AC as it often is, you'd have only a 70% miss rate on your single attack. The MM statistics thread points out that attacking reflex is on average a +3 to hit, so that's the value I use.

I guess all I'm really saying is Twin Strike would be useless for melee as an artful dodger, making it a "backup" ranged only attack type, I know that daggers can be thrown but a Rogue is often in the thick of melee. Being up close often I'd rather have at wills that both work well in melee and target different defenses than one melee and one ranged at will.