Atonement Spell Questions

[RUMBLETiGER]

The Atonement spell appears to be conceptually (RAI) tied to the wishes of a deity a bit more than the average spell, however the mechanics (RAW) of the spell does not appear to be this way, except the wording of restoring Cleric or Druid spell powers.

Clerics can be godless and of any alignment. Many Druids, who also have this spell on their list, are played to be revering nature as a concept rather than a deity.

Could a godless Druid or a Chaotic Neutral Cleric cast the spell to restore a fallen Paladin and if so, who's deity does the spell function off of? Could Atonement be made contingent in advance?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Could a godless Druid or a Chaotic Neutral Cleric cast the spell to restore a fallen Paladin and if so, who's deity does the spell function off of? Could Atonement be made contingent in advance?

Personally, I wouldn't allow either one, but I'm not sure anything in the RAW prevents either one.

As I recall, earlier editions explicitly stated that a fallen pally had to have Atonement cast by a priest of his own faith. I don't remember seeing that language in 3.XEd's Atonement or Paladin class write-up. Still, since the nature of a Paladin's relationship with the divine is so personal, I'd keep that earlier edition restriction...unless the Paladin also changes the deity or force to whom he is beholden.

And I think that a Contingent Atonement would go against the spirit of the rules...possibly even the RAW, given the language requiring that the subject has to be repentant as well as that requiring the caster personally intercede with the deity if the actions leading to Atonement being needed were willing.

 

[Jacob]

Could a godless Druid or a Chaotic Neutral Cleric cast the spell to restore a fallen Paladin and if so, who's deity does the spell function off of? Could Atonement be made contingent in advance?

No and no. Atonement requires one of similar faith (even those without a god) to atone the sinner for their misdeeds. As such, not only can such a spell not be contingent, it sin could possibly be too great with just a simple casting of atonement. At most a grand holy quest THEN atonement, but again, needs to be done by one of similar faith, because they are asking something higher than themselves to give back power to one who doesn't deserve it.

 

[Dozen]

No and no. Atonement requires one of similar faith (even those without a god) to atone the sinner for their misdeeds. As such, not only can such a spell not be contingent, it sin could possibly be too great with just a simple casting of atonement. At most a grand holy quest THEN atonement, but again, needs to be done by one of similar faith, because they are asking something higher than themselves to give back power to one who doesn't deserve it.

I agree wholeheatedly with the reasoning, but not the verdict. What constitutes a 'similar faith' is beyond mere alignment. Alignment in d&d is important to the universe, the warring factions of the Outer Planes, the mortal souls who don't worship anyone in particular, and it stops there. It already controls enough of their lives without arbitrarily assigning it more importance than it already has.

There is more to a person, and by extension a deity, than their stance on morals and ethics. Also, you can, technically, be a LG Paladin of a non-LG god, as uncommon as that is, the most prevalent example being the paladins of Pelor and his allies. Evil deities are still right out, naturally, with the paladin's code restrictions. Even if they'd hide it, the Paladins would eventually notice they can't prepare spells with the good descriptor.

Imagine a paladin falls for trusting in his church's regulations too much to consider Evil-aligned creatures could slip through the cracks and tempt him. To repent, he may swear not to believe blindly in order ever again, to prepare for the worst no matter how small are the chances. In this case, say, a CN Cleric of Ralishaz - the god who warns order is a concept rather than a thing that exists, and misfortune comes for all sooner or later - might work just as well as one of his own. A Cleric of Boccob on the other hand, whose portfolio can be summed up as 'not giving a damn', won't do, regardless of how close their respective deities reside on the alignment chart.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Atonement states that you directly intercede with your deity. So I would say that a godless cleric and druid would not be able to restore a paladin. I would probably go as far to say that you would need a cleric/druid of the paladin's faith to restore his class, unless they were switching deities.

Atonement also states that you have to be truly repentant. How can you be truly repentant about something you haven't even done yet; that may or may not happen? So while the wording of contingency/craft contingent spell may allow Atonement to be contingent, as a DM I wouldn't allow it and may even express to the PC that their deity is not happy with this idea.

 

[Umbran]

Technically, with the class and spell as written in the SRD, reading strictly - yes, that Druid or CN cleric could cast the spell for a paladin.

Note that they could *not* do so for a LG cleric who has lost their powers. They are separate functions and worded differently in the spell description.

Though, personally, I think that in most cases folks trying to rules-lawyer that sort of solution for a paladin have missed the entire point of the restrictions.

As for how I myself would run it - it would depend upon the cosmology and world in question. I note that you can, technically, have a paladin with a LG alignment, and a code, but no deity. If we required a cleric of the same deity or power, that paladin would be sunk. I would be willing to allow for a cleric who matched pretty closely to do the deed. For example, if the paladin had lost out because they had behaved in a chaotic manner, I would allow for another LG cleric, or perhaps even a LN one, to cast the spell. If they had behaved in an evil manner, a LG or NG cleric might do the deed.

Even in cases where there were gods involved, I might allow for that sort of thing, in terms of the gods knowing and respecting each other. But that would depend upon the detailed cosmology of a given world, and would not generalize well.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As for how I myself would run it - it would depend upon the cosmology and world in question. I note that you can, technically, have a paladin with a LG alignment, and a code, but no deity.

(Well, that applies to Clerics, too. Favored Souls might be the only divine class that cannot be devoted to a philosophy or ethos.)

If we required a cleric of the same deity or power, that paladin would be sunk. I would be willing to allow for a cleric who matched pretty closely to do the deed. For example, if the paladin had lost out because they had behaved in a chaotic manner, I would allow for another LG cleric, or perhaps even a LN one, to cast the spell. If they had behaved in an evil manner, a LG or NG cleric might do the deed.

That sounds right to me.

Even in cases where there were gods involved, I might allow for that sort of thing, in terms of the gods knowing and respecting each other. But that would depend upon the detailed cosmology of a given world, and would not generalize well.

I really wouldn't...when it comes to Paladins, at least, I try to stick to the legends & lore that inspired the class in the first place. Those stories usually involved a higher power communicating directly with someone picked to be a champion- "The Call and The Chosen", at least partially encoded in their sacred vows. That's a personal connection with the divine, and I'd imagine divine beings get just as testy about someone interfering with how and when they discipline their followers as parents would when someone does likewise with their kids.