Attempting to change spellcasting

[Naszir]

This is an attempt to tone down the power of spellcasters without totally shutting them down. It is also an attempt to get 3.5 away from vancian magic without having to completely rewrite the system. Without a doubt some of the inspiration comes from 4e.

A few assumptions first:

1) No metamagic feats.
2) An action point system is used.

Onto the idea:

1) Whenever a spell is cast it causes damage equal to its spell level.
2) Split spells into simple and complex spells. Simple spells can be cast at will. Complex spells cost 1 action point to cast.

For example, a simple spell might be Magic Missle or Shield. A complex spell might be Identify or Mage Armor.

This would make sorcerers no longer relevant and it would make the wizard daily spell alloment chart no longer relevant.

I am still trying to figure out which kind of spells in 3.5 make for good at will spells.

Damage to spellcasters will limit their spamming spells in encounters. They will have to weigh what kind of effect their spell will have versus the amount of damage they will take. Making complex spells conform to an action point system forces the spell caster to think very carefully about using powerful spells in any given encounter. It also gets rid of the "5 minute workday" syndrome.

One concern that comes to mind is how this affects spellcasters at higher levels. I believe that the action point system would still be limiting enough and I would designate a majority of the 4th level and higher spells as Complex spells.

 

[Andre]

Just a few stray thoughts:

1. I really don't like the idea of the spells causing hit point damage to the caster, but if you want to do that, at least make it non-lethal damage. Otherwise, you're just soaking up the cleric's cure spells - and gets kind of silly when the cleric is casting cures for damage incurred from casting cures. Rule that the non-lethal damage cannot be recovered until combat is over, at which time it takes just a moment or two.

2. For spells with duration, rule that the damage cannot be healed/recovered until the spell lapses. This puts a real limit on the number of buffs a caster will be willing to cast at any one time.

3. I like the idea of some resource to limit high-level spells. Not sure if action points are sufficient (how many do you give out in a session?) And you'll be creating a lot of work to divide all the spells into at-will and action-point. Another option is to require an action point when the caster uses his highest level spells. Include a couple exceptions - for example, no action point required for a 1st-level spell, ever, so 1st and 2nd level casters aren't limited to cantrips.

As casters gain levels, you can extend "highest level" to multiple levels. For example, a 12th level caster has to expend an action point to cast 5th or 6th level spells. Also, you can always declare certain spells always require an action point, regardless of level, e.g., teleport.

4. I like metamagic. If you're willing to allow it, allow it "on the fly" and require an action point for each level adjustment. Then it's an option, but an expensive one.

 

[Naszir]

Good points Andre. Thanks for the input.

1) Non-lethal damage makes sense.
2) Not being able to heal until the duration of a spell is done seems like it would be a good add on.
3) Action points as stated in UA are 5 + 1/2 character level per level. It may be a little work to divide all spells into simple and complex but in all reality you'd just have decide which ones are simple and the rest are labeled complex.
4) I guess if I were to allow metamagic that would be one I might consider.

 

[Arkhandus]

1) Whenever a spell is cast it causes damage equal to its spell level.
2) Split spells into simple and complex spells. Simple spells can be cast at will. Complex spells cost 1 action point to cast.

I am still trying to figure out which kind of spells in 3.5 make for good at will spells.

Damage to spellcasters will limit their spamming spells in encounters. They will have to weigh what kind of effect their spell will have versus the amount of damage they will take. Making complex spells conform to an action point system forces the spell caster to think very carefully about using powerful spells in any given encounter. It also gets rid of the "5 minute workday" syndrome.

One concern that comes to mind is how this affects spellcasters at higher levels. I believe that the action point system would still be limiting enough and I would designate a majority of the 4th level and higher spells as Complex spells.

1. Note that with this set-up, 0-level spells will have infinite uses per day (aside from any complex 0-level spells). Cure Minor Wounds, Virtue, Guidance, and maybe Resistance would probably have to be complex in order to avoid abuse (+1 to nearly all rolls with infinite Guidance, +1 to saves all the time with Resistance, infinite healing, etc.).

2. Divine spellcasters will be far less impacted by this change than arcane casters. Although it will mean they might do less melee combat, it definitely means that clerics, druids, etc. will be using their superior Hit Dice to cast almost twice as many spells per day than anyone else. Paladins etc. will be able to cast even more spells per day, though only of low levels, and it's a more significant tradeoff for them, so it's not so bad in their case. But primary divine casters will be getting a significant boost, with only a minor drawback (the mid-level cleric in one of my games was hardly ever even hit while fully buffed and armored, so what did he need his massive HP for except in those rare cases where a dragon or giant actually managed to hit him?).

3. Note that this change reduces the usefulness of the mental ability scores for spellcasters. Now all they do is help boost their save DCs, for what spells actually use saving throws, which many do not (like many buffing/healing/utility spells). And of course they determine the maximum level of spell they can learn and cast, but it still feels like something of a waste to have high Int/Wis/Cha if they have no impact on most of your spellcasting and little impact on anything else.

4. Most or all healing spells will have to be complex in this set-up to avoid massive abuse. Since they'd counter the only drawback to the infinite casting of simple spells and would mitigate the drawbacks of complex spells.

5. This set-up would make lower-level offensive spells and some lower-level utility/defensive spells fairly worthless after a certain point. As soon as the wizard learns Scorching Ray or Flaming Sphere, for example, there's not much point in using Burning Hands anymore. Sure, if he gets really low on HP he might want to use BH instead of Scorching Ray or Fireball or something, but he'd most likely rather make certain that whatever's threatening him at the moment dies from the attack spell. If the cleric needs to revive him with a Cure spell afterward, or if someone needs to feed him a Potion of Cure Light Wounds afterward, so be it. And once the cleric learns Cure Moderate Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds, there's not much point in using Cure Light Wounds anymore.

6. Higher-level spellcasters will spam Time Stop, Implosion, Flesh to Stone, Holy Word, Flame Strike, or what-have-you. Sure, they may have to waste action points on them, but the immediate goal of survival and victory is served in the process. They can always get more action points next session or whatever. Of course this depends on the specific action point system in use.

7. This doesn't completely solve the 5-minute workday, either. Though it helps. But it also carries serious problems with suspension of disbelief and how the game setting is portrayed, given the infinite casting of many spells.

8. This doesn't really weaken spellcasters much (though it hurts arcanists a bit), so it doesn't serve one of its primary purposes. Infinite spells is not a good idea in that regard. An alternative with just a simple non-slot-related limit on how much spellcasting is possible would better serve that purpose, although the damage dealt to the caster at least covers part of the problem of infinite spellcasting.

 

[Naszir]

1. Note that with this set-up, 0-level spells will have infinite uses per day (aside from any complex 0-level spells). Cure Minor Wounds, Virtue, Guidance, and maybe Resistance would probably have to be complex in order to avoid abuse (+1 to nearly all rolls with infinite Guidance, +1 to saves all the time with Resistance, infinite healing, etc.).

Good point. Then all spells will do their spell level +1 point in damage each time they are cast.

2. Divine spellcasters will be far less impacted by this change than arcane casters. Although it will mean they might do less melee combat, it definitely means that clerics, druids, etc. will be using their superior Hit Dice to cast almost twice as many spells per day than anyone else. Paladins etc. will be able to cast even more spells per day, though only of low levels, and it's a more significant tradeoff for them, so it's not so bad in their case. But primary divine casters will be getting a significant boost, with only a minor drawback (the mid-level cleric in one of my games was hardly ever even hit while fully buffed and armored, so what did he need his massive HP for except in those rare cases where a dragon or giant actually managed to hit him?).

Hmm, how about Divine spellcasters in this case take more damage. Let's say they take damage equal to the spells level +1 and that gets multiplied by 2.

My other thought is to make divine spellcasters even more limited than arcane ones. The idea would be that all divine spells cost an action point. Their are no simple divine spells. I'll admit this makes things a lot more deadly and any divine spellcaster will have to be very judicious about using his spells.

3. Note that this change reduces the usefulness of the mental ability scores for spellcasters. Now all they do is help boost their save DCs, for what spells actually use saving throws, which many do not (like many buffing/healing/utility spells). And of course they determine the maximum level of spell they can learn and cast, but it still feels like something of a waste to have high Int/Wis/Cha if they have no impact on most of your spellcasting and little impact on anything else.

Well it is still important to the level of spells they can cast.

4. Most or all healing spells will have to be complex in this set-up to avoid massive abuse. Since they'd counter the only drawback to the infinite casting of simple spells and would mitigate the drawbacks of complex spells.

See #2.

5. This set-up would make lower-level offensive spells and some lower-level utility/defensive spells fairly worthless after a certain point. As soon as the wizard learns Scorching Ray or Flaming Sphere, for example, there's not much point in using Burning Hands anymore. Sure, if he gets really low on HP he might want to use BH instead of Scorching Ray or Fireball or something, but he'd most likely rather make certain that whatever's threatening him at the moment dies from the attack spell. If the cleric needs to revive him with a Cure spell afterward, or if someone needs to feed him a Potion of Cure Light Wounds afterward, so be it. And once the cleric learns Cure Moderate Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds, there's not much point in using Cure Light Wounds anymore.

Not sure at the moment what to do about this. It just may be a drawback. Cure wounds spells need to be changed anyway.

6. Higher-level spellcasters will spam Time Stop, Implosion, Flesh to Stone, Holy Word, Flame Strike, or what-have-you. Sure, they may have to waste action points on them, but the immediate goal of survival and victory is served in the process. They can always get more action points next session or whatever. Of course this depends on the specific action point system in use.

Personally I'm not too concerned about high level spells. The campaigns that I run tend to end around 12th level or so.

 

[Aus_Snow]

There's a neat alternative to pseudo-Vancian called Legends of Sorcery, from RPGObjects, which otherwise plugs straight into 3e, and - in my experience - works well with it. Basically, you use skill rolls, with various modifiers at play, to determine how successful your casting has been, and that level of success (but not only that) then determines what happens to the caster, potentially (for example) things like fatigue or exhaustion. Worse fates are also possible, but generally you have to thrash your casting, fail dismally, or something along those lines.

Just another way of going about it. But sure, nonlethal damage can work as a limiter, too.

 

[Sempronius]

Something my group tried once:
Casting spells does (1d3-1) non-lethal damage to the caster per spell level, except for cantrips/orizons which do 1d3-2.
Healing changes the healed amount of damage to non-lethal damage, and healing rate for non-lethal damage was doubled.
To stop spamming, or rather, to slow it down, you might want to try the following:
To cast a spell, the caster must succeed at a Spellcraft check, DC 20+minimum caster level for spell+desired caster level for spell.
You could go a step further, and demand, instead of a spellcraft check, a spellcraft(school) check. This forces all casters, arcane and divine to specialize in a school or three, and never be masters of all magic. You can get awesome bonusses for this, but that just means you can cast your favourite schools well, but can barely cast anything else.

(I have not used the second idea (spellcraft(school)) though, so I don't kknow how it would work in practice.)


If you combine the checks with damage, you could say a crit-miss would do double damage, or even lethal damage, while a crit-success would do half, or no damage.
You could also make the magic do damage whether or not the casting was successful.

Just a few ideas. Hopefully not too n00by