Attention Paladin, Monk, Cleric, Druid and Other Players!

[Hussar]

But you miss that the powers originate within and are entirely dependent upon an Oath. An Oath in the old-school mythological sense. In Irish legend, they'd call this a geas/geis.
/snip

Umm, I'm not sure this is actually supported by the write up of the class. I don't recall anything about swearing any Oath in the description of the paladin class. Yes, every paladin had a code ((and I still think clerics should have one as well)), but, there's nothing there about having to swear anything.

Nor are paladins necessarily chosen by anyone.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A vow that, if you break it, you suffer immediate and substantial detriments is virtually the definition of a geas. It may not be called that in game, but the mechanics of the paladin reflect that kind link: vow for power...with severe penalties for backsliding.

Besides, again, I was discussing the inspirational underpinnings of the class, not the class itself. The statement was made that the class was all about kicking butt in the name of the divine. I responded that that view missed an important factor, namely that the class' vow wasn't merely an social contract, but a mystical oath from which both the powers AND the punishment spring.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Besides, again, I was discussing the inspirational underpinnings of the class, not the class itself. The statement was made that the class was all about kicking butt in the name of the divine. I responded that that view missed an important factor, namely that the class' vow wasn't merely an social contract, but a mystical oath from which both the powers AND the punishment spring.

To me, that's simply not an important factor.

As I see it, Joan of Arc, our distorted idea of Arthurian knights, the D&D paladin's Code and implied vow...those are all just suggestions about how paladins of some gods in my campaign world might act. But nothing about a paladin's class abilities imply that every member of the class should be restricted to such a narrow archetype.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To me, that's simply not an important factor.

To me, it's a vital and defining factor of supernatural holy warriors (aka Paladins) across faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), cultures (Gaelic, Greek), and literature (Knights of the Word), etc.

That they are oathbound makes them what they are.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[was]

I'm not fond of overly strict rules, but there should be a pc-dm agreed upon code for the pc. One that allows him/her some freedom in following the tenets as long as they follow the basic principles. But yes, there should be some consequences for gross code violations..i.e. no good pallys burning down orphanages for grins and giggles.

 

[Hussar]

DannyA - ok, fair enough.

Then why would a paladin be oathbound but a cleric of the same god is not? The cleric has vastly greater powers and potential than the paladin ever will, and that's true in any edition. Paladin's might be combat engines, but, last time I checked, they cannot raise the dead or summon armies or possibly Gate in the God in question (or at least some seriously high ranking angelic/demonic muscle).

Why is a paladin of a LG god bound to tighter restrictions than a cleric of the same god?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Then why would a paladin be oathbound but a cleric of the same god is not?

Why can't nuns perform marriages? Why can't most mayors carry guns and arrest people? Different oaths for different positions with different responsibilities and consequences.

The paladin's oath is directly to his god; the cleric's is to his faith's heirarchy. The paladin's duty is to be his god's sword arm; the cleric's is to minister to the flock in times of peace, war, sickness, health, happiness, sorrow, etc. This also includes power over paladins- their ability to cast Attonement acts as a check on the worldly power of the holy warriors. It keeps them in a position of subservience to the faith (humility IS a virtue...and a rare one at that).

A cleric's oath may be minor in power compared to the pally's: a god has need for many priests to do all those things for all those people, so the penalties for violating the oath may not be so great. But make no mistake- if he makes the wrong kind of error, he will be struck down. (Scour the various divinities through the editions and you'll find those who kill those priests who dare convert to other religions, for example.)

Returning to Arthur, whether or not he was a paladin, his oath as king has a different set of responsibilities that supersede all others. If, as some assert, his legends were based in gaelic legends, his sins would affect not just him, but the entire kingdom. And he couldn't raise the dead either.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Never post when grumpy. Sorry about that.

 

[Halivar]

This is why I don't like playing such characters with DM's I am unfamiliar with. Any disagreement between a player and DM over whether the player has broken their code often exposes opposing real-world philosophical view points. I can imagine a good many people would strip my paladins of their powers, based simply on our conflicting viewpoints of the real-world concepts of "justice", "murder", "grace", and "honor."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

People complain about how you could get screwed over playing a pre-4th Paladin because of his code. They say "the mechanics of the code have merit" but would rather the game not have mechanics that can be used to screw PCs. Truth is, other pre-4th classes had mechanics that were just as leverageable bot that purpose by a bad DM.

Playing a Wizard? If your DM hates pets, your familiar will die and you're taking a stat hit. (Seen this in person.) And keep a close eye on your spellbook- if it's gone, you're in trouble.

Playing a Rogue? Hope your DM isn't a fan of constructs & undead.

Both are basically gone in 4Ed.

But personally, I think those mechanics do a good job of modeling what those classes are about, but I also know that those issues can arise for some players, especially if they're butting heads with the guy on the other side of the screen. Still, I think the game is poorer for having those excisions in the name of worrying about the 10% of bad DMing that causes most of he problems.