AU - first impressions?

[dagger]

Balanced to what? I thought the AU classes are supposed to be played with other AU classes only?

 

[BryonD]

Not according to Monte.

Clarification: It is supposed to be playable as a stand alone alternate. But it is also supposed to be interchangable with D&D.
This general point was made over and over in the "Why this is not Monte's 3.5" debates.

 

[nharwell]

Well, if you're comparing 3.0 and AU, the an easy example would be to have the sorceror cast haste + lightning bolt x2. He then does the same amount of damage and gains a +4 to AC for the cost of 3 3rd-level spell slots. The Magister, on the other hand, would have used 2 3rd-level spell slots, 2 feats, and 20 gp. A much more balanced comparison, I think.

 

[anonystu]

This is an interesting point.

But I guess my question for clarity, would be what part of D&D would you consider for maximizing a D&D character? Just the 3.5 PHB, Tome & Blood, 3rd party support via Book of Eldrich Might?

Also, I don't think I'm maxing the AU character for destruction: I only spent a single energy mage feat. At sixth level (with an 21 int human wizard (+2 headband of intellect)), if I was really maxing just for this, I could probably cast something like this following monstrosity (although I haven't read carefully enough to see if this template stacking is impossible)

Empowered Eldritch fire-sonic-electricity-cold fire sorcerous bolt.

Effects: like a lightning bolt (choose wide or narrow path), does (6d6 fire damage + 2d6 fire damage) * 1.5 damage. (roughly 12d6 fire damage)

Reflex DC 19 for half.

Targets hit make a fortitude save DC 19 or be slowed for one round for every 10 points of damage taken.

Targets hit make a fortitude save DC 19 or be stunned for one round.

Targets hit make a fortitude save DC 19 or be deafened for one minute (I know I'm definitely misremembering the sonic effect)

Cost: Two 3rd-level spells + 3 gems (equal to 75 gp) + a focus (tuning fork?) worth 100gp.

Descriptors (big weakness): has fire, electricity, cold, sonic descriptors

You wouldn't want to cast this often (75 gp can add up quick), and you would want to make sure that your enemy didn't know this was coming, and didn't have resistances (because any immunity would stop it, and monsters with fire, cold, electricity resistance x would have a field day), but against someone unprotected or unaware, this is big. And plus, you get everyone in the path too.

This is a bit more min/maxed.

 

[BryonD]

If you start allowing being under the effect of a spell be considered, you really blur the comparison.

It would be like giving a character sneak attack that works on all attacks and saying it is balanced because greater (improved) invisibility exists.

 

[anonystu]

Well, if you're comparing 3.0 and AU, the an easy example would be to have the sorceror cast haste + lightning bolt x2. He then does the same amount of damage and gains a +4 to AC for the cost of 3 3rd-level spell slots. The Magister, on the other hand, would have used 2 3rd-level spell slots, 2 feats, and 20 gp. A much more balanced comparison, I think.

(edit: one feat, not two! I will continue to insist that modify spell is simply an every spellcaster feat (maybe with a few minor spellcasters who might shy away from it in favor of taking complex spell over and over). It is too powerful and useful to be considered part of this battle mage build, rather than: "The feat magisters almost always take by 3rd level.")

You're absolutely right: haste 3.0 plus a battle sorceror probably exceeds the magister.

I must admit, I'm not terribly worried about the 3.0 balance, since I thought haste to be a problem for just that reason.

Although, when you put it like so, empower spell as a laden makes perfect sense to balance the hasted spellcasters, which might explain it's current cost.

 

[nharwell]

If you start allowing being under the effect of a spell be considered, you really blur the comparison.

It would be like giving a character sneak attack that works on all attacks and saying it is balanced because greater (improved) invisibility exists.

Well, if you disallow that, then the only real comparison would be to compare a metamagicked spell. I'm not sure how you'd do that -- is a Empowered Lightning Bolt (5th level slot) equal to a empowered firefire sorcerous bolt (2 -3rd level slots)? The original comparison is unfair as it matches a single 3rd-level slot for the Sorceror (with no feats) against 2 3rd-level slots for the Magister (with 2 feats).

 

[anonystu]

If you start allowing being under the effect of a spell be considered, you really blur the comparison.

It would be like giving a character sneak attack that works on all attacks and saying it is balanced because greater (improved) invisibility exists.

I agree with part of this sentiment, but think 3.0 haste is a very large exception: any combat-oriented 5th-level wizard+ or 6th-level sorceror+ probably always casts this as the very first spell as any combat: you always get your action right back, and cast double from there on out. I think 3.0 expected damage should at least be theroized as a haste spell being active most of the time.

 

[anonystu]

Well, if you disallow that, then the only real comparison would be to compare a metamagicked spell. I'm not sure how you'd do that -- is a Empowered Lightning Bolt (5th level slot) equal to a empowered firefire sorcerous bolt (2 -3rd level slots)? The original comparison is unfair as it matches a single 3rd-level slot for the Sorceror (with no feats) against 2 3rd-level slots for the Magister (with 2 feats).

To be more explicit with the post below: if we're playing 3.0, then not allowing haste is silly: all battle mages are going to be casting it. At this point, I would say, the 3.0 battle sorceror probably does slightly better: they have to cast haste to start up the lightning bolt/bolt chains, but have more high level slots and it doesn't cost money, but it's suprising how in a game without haste, the magister comes very close, and then still has all this versatility the battle sorc is lacking. But I'll cede that 3.0 battle sorcs probably outmatch.

(Edit: Oh, 3.0 battle sorcs also get +2 sf and +2 gsf, for what's it worth, but I'm not recalculating that stuff again. Add like 7.5% to the expected damage values, and you should be fine.)

If we're playing 3.5 (which is what I'm more concerned with, your mileage may vary), then the examples are valid as far as I can tell.

 

[Dalamar]

Maybe the balance comes in with the fact that lightning bolt is a 120ft line? Or that a more similar spell, Fireball, is a 20ft radius instead of 10ft?