Augment Summoning, and Wands

[Legildur]

Lord Pendragon, how does that fit with staves? You mentioned it in a previous reply.

 

[jcfiala]

So in essence, I take "each creature you conjure" to mean you need to be casting the spell yourself, specifically taking the Cast a Spell action. Wands fall under the Use Magic Item action, the rules of which specifically do not grant it any equivalency to actually casting the spell, which would be the only mitigating factor that might allow the feat to apply.

Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

Does this mean that If I summon a monster with a wand, it does not obey my commands?

 

[Infiniti2000]

So if you take "each creature you conjure" to refer to you casting the spell, then an argument could be made for it applying to spells activated from scrolls. But it seems fairly clear to me that such an argument cannot be made regarding wands, which are not the equivalent of casting a spell.

This interpretation has two major problems. The first is the one that jcfiala keeps mentioning, but you guys are ignoring. The second has two parts. From Summon Monster I:

You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.

You're arguing that a person using a wand of Summon Monster I cannot choose which creature is summoned. So, who chooses? Is there a wand of summon monster I for each possible creature? The second part, from Summon Monster II, is along the same lines. If I can't choose the creature, certainly I don't have the option to choose multiple creatures from the Summon Monster I list.

 

[jcfiala]

So far, the closest I've come to seeing rules on when feats apply to magic items that cast spells is:

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

However, this only states that feats that influence the DC are restricted, not that any others are.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord Pendragon, how does that fit with staves? You mentioned it in a previous reply.

Staves are a specific exception to the rule that allow the use of specific feats. AFAIK, whether or not feats that do not directly affect DC (the exception specifically allowed) are applicable is not addressed. I allow them to, though I could understand a more strict DM ruling that because they aren't mentioned in the exception text, non-DC affecting feats are not applicable.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

This interpretation has two major problems. The first is the one that jcfiala keeps mentioning, but you guys are ignoring.

My apologies. I did not mean to ignore it. It seems rather plain to me that the spell descriptions were written under the assumption that you are casting the spell. Which is to say, they don't address magic items casting a spell at all, but rather all the verbiage is written from the standpoint that an actual spellcaster is casting the spell.

Pointing to that verbiage as some kind of proof regarding a situation in which the spell is not being cast by an actual spellcaster strikes me as disingenuous.

You're arguing that a person using a wand of Summon Monster I cannot choose which creature is summoned.

I am arguing nothing of the sort. If you cast the spell, you choose. If you use a wand, then the magic item casts the spell, and allows you to choose. This does not somehow translate into you being able to use all of your feats on the spell the wand has cast.

 

[jcfiala]

Staves are a specific exception to the rule that allow the use of specific feats. AFAIK, whether or not feats that do not directly affect DC (the exception specifically allowed) are applicable is not addressed. I allow them to, though I could understand a more strict DM ruling that because they aren't mentioned in the exception text, non-DC affecting feats are not applicable.

Okay, I'll ask again. "Staves are a specific exception to the rule that allow the use of specific feats." Where is this rule written? This is all I'm asking here. Page reference? URL to the SRD? I've been looking, and haven't found it. Please show me the rule.

 

[jcfiala]

Pointing to that verbiage as some kind of proof regarding a situation in which the spell is not being cast by an actual spellcaster strikes me as disingenuous.

I'm not pointing to a spell description. I'm pointing to the wordage from the rules on conjuration spells. Can you show me the rules that say that 'conjure' means one thing in one place, and a different thing in another place? I'll admit I'm getting a little snarky here, but all I want is for someone to show me the rule, and I'll go away.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'll admit I'm getting a little snarky here, but all I want is for someone to show me the rule, and I'll go away.

*shrug* I believe in my very first post I mentioned that I don't believe there is a specific rule as you would like. Instead, I posted my ruling and the reasoning behind that ruling.

 

[jcfiala]

*shrug* I believe in my very first post I mentioned that I don't believe there is a specific rule as you would like. Instead, I posted my ruling and the reasoning behind that ruling.

I still find your logic unsatisfying. How does 'conjure' in "each creature you conjure" mean one thing, where 'conjure' in "Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands." means another? Both are quotes from the rules. Admittedly, 'conjure' itself is undefined in the rules as far as I can tell.

It just seems to be this assumption, and I'm trying to track it down. I wonder if it's something that was defined in 3.0, and somehow got lost on the way to 3.5?