"Authenticity" of double weapons

[rackabello]

My knowledge of the RL history of weaponry is limited, so I thought I'd ask some of the smart folks here about some of the double weapons included in 3e.

Are there historical precedents for the double sword, dire flail, orc double axe and gnome hooked hammer? If so, were they effective martial weapons or simply designed to show aff an artisan's or a sport fighter's skill? I ask because I've always had a bit of trouble understanding just how these items could work in combat.

IANAMA (I am not a martial artist), but wouldn't all of these weapons require a much shorter swinging arc for each head?Wouldn't this severely limit the power that one could put behind one's swing, in addition to reducing the force that the weight of the blade/axehead/etc? It seems to me that this power would be lessened even further for the dire flail, with the business end of the weapon attached at the end of a length of chain. For that matter, attacking with both flails seems like a pretty sure way to bounce on of them off your skull.

This isn't really an in game criticism of the weapons. Wayne Reynolds picture in Sword & Fist of the decidedly uniconic elf w/dire flail convinced me of it's "coolness" factor in a fantasy setting. Still and all, when I separate these weapons from the game, I can't quite suspend my disbelief.

Any thoughts?

 

[Davelozzi]

I don't believe that there is any historical precedent for those weapons, although if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me. I always figured they added them in there because of the kewlness of Darth Maul's double lightsaber.

 

[takyris]

In real life I train with a double spear. Now granted, that's much different than a sword, in that there's more haft-room, since if I want to I can choke up right behind the spear-point. But I can definitely make the double spear work. I haven't trained with a double sword or anything more esoteric, but I can see some of them working to a point. You couldn't do everything with a double sword that you could do with two swords, but you'd benefit from a better blocking length and more weight to give your weapon momentum. As long as you had a "real" double sword -- something with a long haft and two short blades -- instead of the "have to hold onto the very middle" double sword in the PHB pictures, I think it'd be usable.

Oddly enough, I just realized that no one in my campaign has ever used a double weapon. They've never been a big deal for us.

-Tacky

 

[Ace]

Even the staff is seldom used as a double weapon IRL

THe normal techniques are closer to spear techniques not the "quarter staff" stuff you see in movies

There are chinese weapons like a double axe, rather like two spades on a stick

Double spears as takyris mentioned

Now the Dire flail is pretty ridiculous although you could use bars connected by chains if you liked as a modified three section staff.

AS for the Gnomeish hooked hammer, Nah

The reason you don't see much of the weapons like this is simply they don't work very well IRL. Not only are the awkward to carry they are also somewhat hazardous to the user.

 

[Maerdwyn]

It makes sense that two swords stuck together, etc wouldn't work too well, but there are plenty of historical weapons with spike on the butt end.

Was the Lajatang from 1e Oriental adventures based on a historical weapon?

 

[rackabello]

I haven't trained with a double sword or anything more esoteric, but I can see some of them working to a point. You couldn't do everything with a double sword that you could do with two swords, but you'd benefit from a better blocking length and more weight to give your weapon momentum. As long as you had a "real" double sword -- something with a long haft and two short blades -- instead of the "have to hold onto the very middle" double sword in the PHB pictures, I think it'd be usable.
-Tacky

I agree that a longer hafted double sword makes more sense, though it would turn the weapon into more of a polearm. The PHB double sword, short blades, longish hilt, looks to be more of a stabbing weapon, though it deals slashing damage.

 

[rackabello]

It makes sense that two swords stuck together, etc wouldn't work too well, but there are plenty of historical weapons with spike on the butt end.

Right, and that's why the Dwarven urgosh has never given me pause. It's much easier for me to imagine a swing with the axe blade followed by a stabbing spear attack to an opponent flanking to the rear or the side.

 

[RangerWickett]

I view a double-sword working like a quarterstaff with blades on the end. A double-axe would be a little harder, and probably wouldn't be a straight bar; maybe it'd be slightly curved, like some sort of tae-bo stick.

For a dire flail, though, try this practice. Get one of those curly phone cords, at least 6 feet long. Hold it so you have the middle 2 feet in your hands, and try twirling it. It'd be really hard to do parries and stuff with it, but I think it's quite possible to use it offensively. I just don't know if it'd be worth the effort.

For a gnome hooked hammer . . . I just can't see that working. A double-axe at least can cut in from both sides, but to have to puncture at right angles like that . . . seems a little iffy to me.

I'm still waiting for the double-whip-dagger. Or better yet, the double-club!

 

[rackabello]

Originally posted by RangerWickett I'm still waiting for the double-whip-dagger. Or better yet, the double-club!

What about a triple club? I think the athachs deserve an exotic weapon all of their own.

For a dire flail, though, try this practice. Get one of those curly phone cords, at least 6 feet long. Hold it so you have the middle 2 feet in your hands, and try twirling it. It'd be really hard to do parries and stuff with it, but I think it's quite possible to use it offensively. I just don't know if it'd be worth the effort.

You've just given me an idea for a magic weapon for a shamanic society. Many societies use a ritual noisemaker called a bullroarer -- essentially a long cord or rope with a flat piece of stone or wood on the end, carved so that it creates a moaning whistle when twirled in the air above one's head. So this magicked bullroarer could be a low-medium damage bludgeoning weapon with either some sonic energy effect when striking or a hypnotic effect when sounded.

 

[kenjib]

It seems to me that with the way double weapons are used in real life, most of the time, it shouldn't give you an extra attack per round over a polearm. The benefit seems much more subtle, and something that D&D can't really capture very well. Am I incorrect?