Autofire on big targets, ala cars, etc.

[kreynolds]

I've seen this mentioned several times here and on the WotC boards. I'm referring to the fact that even if you target a vehicle from 10 feet away, and even though the vehicle completely fills the 10 x 10 area that you target with autofire, after cranking out 10 bullets, only 1 hits. For those of you that find this odd, I can tell you that you're not the only one.

First of all, I should mention that mucking around with this isn't a big deal in my games at all. Monsters don't exist in my games. Personally, I get the feeling that's the only reason you don't do more damage to bigger targets is simply because of big monsters. Anyways, it doesn't make sense to me, so lets work with this, shall we? Crank out them ideas!

I'll go first. I propose that if a target fills more than one square in the 10 x 10 area targeted by autofire, their Reflex DC goes up by +2 for each extra square they fill beyond the first, and they take damage for each square they're standing in.

For example, if you target a Corvette and it fills the entire 10 x 10 area, the Corvette will take 8d8 points of damage from an M16A2 (normal 2d8).

The damage could also be (normal) + (1 die per extra square beyond the first). So, in the case of the corvette with an M16A2, it would take 5d8 points of damage (2d8 + 3d8).

Thoughts?

 

[JDragon]

KR,

I would combine both part of both options, +2 to reflex save per square beyond the first and +1 die of damage per square beyond the first.

The only problem with this would be against creatures as it would amlost always require a massive damge save if they fail the reflex save.

JDragon

 

[kreynolds]

I would combine both part of both options, +2 to reflex save per square beyond the first and +1 die of damage per square beyond the first.

It already does include the Reflex save modification. It was merely an alternative to the extended damage in the first option.

The only problem with this would be against creatures as it would amlost always require a massive damge save if they fail the reflex save.

Exactly. As I already stated, it seems to me the only reason that extended damage on autofire against big targets isn't already in the D20 Modern rules is precisely because of big monsters, meaning you would rip most of them to shreds in short order. To me, ripping them to shreds is completely appropriate.

Basically, I keep two things in mind...
1) It doesn't make any sense that using autofire 10 feet away from a car allows you to hit it with only 1 bullet. Such a thing can't be logically explained in any way, shape, or form.
2) As far as I'm concerned, a Behir (page 24, MM) truly should get absolutely ripped to shreads by an M16, AK74, or M60.

The fact that a Behir simply isn't capable of sucking up that kind of damage is not a flaw within the rules of D20 Modern, and it isn't a flaw with the rules of the MM. It is merely representative of the fact that a Behir is going to have a really bad frickin' day in a modern world.

From my perspective, this isn't a problem at all. It simply means that a modern world is fully equipped to handle a Behir, as it should be. Heck, a modern world should be able to handle damn near any monster. Snag an F16 and a few sidewinders, and suddenly you are more properly equipped than ever to deal with even the biggest dragons. Besides, what's a dragon gonna do? Catch you?

 

[Bagpuss]

You can avoid the massive damage rule by saying each bullet is counted as an individual application of damage.

ie: It four set of 2d8 damage. Not one set of 8d8. Much as Creeping Doom is treated, also it allows Damage Reduction and Hardness to be applied against each set of damage. This give large super-natural creatures a better survival chance, and you won't easily be shooting through a solid steel door.

The same rule does NOT need to be applied to Burst and Double Tap as the bullets hit the same general location on the target so get counted as one instance of damage.

 

[kreynolds]

You can avoid the massive damage rule by saying each bullet is counted as an individual application of damage.

...but still treat the damage from Burst Fire and Double Tab as a single source? I would recommend it, as that is often the only way to get past a tough creature's DR with a non-magical firearm, or to damage objects with a decent hardness as well. While I would still prefer to treat all the autofire damage as a single source in my games, I suppose it would be an acceptable compromise if I were a player.

 

[Ranger REG]

Exactly. As I already stated, it seems to me the only reason that extended damage on autofire against big targets isn't already in the D20 Modern rules is precisely because of big monsters, meaning you would rip most of them to shreds in short order. To me, ripping them to shreds is completely appropriate.

Not if your PC is a very big creature, albeit not recommended but is not limited. (Unless you can prove to me that the Wizards Gaming Police is going to hunt me down for playing a Red Dragon corporate executive.)

Yes, I know. You are probably not going to use this FX element, but if someone were to do so (for d20 Modern is the core ruleset for any type of modern-era campaign), they'd be trigger-happy to play Reign of Fire movie scenario with ease.

As for car, what would shooting up the entire car do to it? I mean if you intend to shoot the car then it should a concentrated effort, you should focus your gunfire on the gas tank or engine location. But if you are simply hitting an area and the car or any object or creatures happens to be there, then it is simply collateral damage. It may provide cover for those in the area, in which case, striking the cover rule may apply here.

 

[kreynolds]

Not if your PC is a very big creature, albeit not recommended but is not limited.

D20 Modern assumes all players are human. If you start allowing other races, be prepared to see strange things happen.

(Unless you can prove to me that the Wizards Gaming Police is going to hunt me down for playing a Red Dragon corporate executive.)

Um...dude? What's with the rudeness?

Yes, I know. You are probably not going to use this FX element...

Oh, there's no "probably" about it. In a different game, maybe, but not this one. This game is already established.

As for car, what would shooting up the entire car do to it?

Actually, that's the only choice you have. You can't target a specific part of the car, except for the windows and tires.

...you should focus your gunfire on the gas tank or engine location.

Only a called-shot type system can do that. In D20 Modern, there is no gas tank. In D&D, there is no heart. You hit what's in front of you, and that's basically the only choice you have. Sometimes you deal extra damage, such as a rogue, but even that isn't in D20 Modern anymore.

But if you are simply hitting an area and the car or any object or creatures happens to be there, then it is simply collateral damage.

So, if you're standing right in front of a car (i.e. 10 feet to 5 feet), 9 bullets just vanish and only 1 hits? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. It only makes sense that you would fill the car with lead. Even in an abstract combat/hit/miss system, you are effectively attacking four squares. The car fills all four squares. You hit all four squares. But you can damage only one? I don't buy it.

 

[Mistwell]

D20 Modern assumes all players are human. If you start allowing other races, be prepared to see strange things happen.

Not to jump too much into this debate (I prefer to watch on this one), I did want to pop in and say that I don't think this is a broad-based assumption. Charles Ryan already announced these rules:

"Q: Can anyone tell me how to adapt non-human characters (both standard and monsters) to a PC-format.

A: The rules for creating a non-human character are basically the same as those for adding a character class to a creature (see page 230). To sum up: 1) The character gets one fewer skill point per level. (This is reflected on table 8-20.) Since you normally get 4 times as many skills at 1st level, the character gets 4 fewer skill points at 1st level. 2) The character gets only one feat at 1st level, instead of 2. 3) The character does not get a starting occupation. 4) Use the racial ability modifiers for the race from the D&D Player's Handbook (if you have it and the race is covered there). Otherwise, here's a trick for determining the ability modifiers from the d20 Modern stats: If the given ability is an odd number, subtract 11 from it. If the ability is an even number, subtract 10. The result is racial modifier for that ability score. For example, a goblin has Str 8 and Dex 13. Subtracting 10 (because 8 is an even number) from 8 gives us -2. Subtracting 11 (because 13 is odd) from 13 gives us +2. So the racial mods for a goblin's Str and Dex are -2 and +2, respectively. This is a rule of thumb and won't always work perfectly. These rules apply primarily to creatures that normally only have one Hit Die. For higher Hit Die creatures, you'll have to fudge it or wait for Urban Arcana. [Also] Moreaus have their own rules. They're essentially the same as those above, except that moreaus do get starting occupations, and the ability score modifiers are given in the descriptions."

In addition, apparently the Genetech setting has something called Franks as a player race, which I believe are non-humans. (Or are those Moreaus? I don't know, I don't have that magazine yet).

 

[kreynolds]

...I did want to pop in and say that I don't think this is a broad-based assumption.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I said D20 Modern assumes that the players are human, and it does. See page 18, Behind the Scenes: Everybody's Human, for more info.

 

[Bagpuss]

Hey Mistwell, we got out of your FAQ thread and now you've got the nerve to bringing your FAQ in here! Why I.....