Automatic Quicken Spell and metamagic

[andargor]

The following question applies to Automatic Still Spell and Automatic Silent Spell as well.

If a character has Automatic Quicken Spell once (0 to 3rd level spells), and casts an empowered fireball, is it cast as a free action? Even though it is from a 5th level slot?

I'm saying yes because of the following:

Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Metamagic Feats
...
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

An empowered fireball takes up a higher level slot to cast, but it remains a 3rd level spell. Hence it would be automatically quickened.

Correct?

Andargor

 

[FEADIN]

You're twisting the rules, you can say that but:Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
The rule for Automatic Quicken have changed, it was too powerfull, see the Epic section in the Complete Arcane; now you can automatically quicken only 0 and 1 st level spells if you take the feat once and you add only a level of spell each time you take the feat.
The rule is still good for Silent and Still.

 

[andargor]

You're twisting the rules, you can say that but:Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
The rule for Automatic Quicken have changed, it was too powerfull, see the Epic section in the Complete Arcane; now you can automatically quicken only 0 and 1 st level spells if you take the feat once and you add only a level of spell each time you take the feat.
The rule is still good for Silent and Still.

Please don't assume my intention... I wish to play by the rules.

Your interpretation could be valid, but again according to what I'm reading, I disagree.

Thanks for the reference in the Complete Arcane, I had completely missed that. I will advise my DM. It might involve some character reengineering, since this is a far less useful feat now (my character has it twice). If you've read my thread about advanced great wyrms, I can assure you that Automatic Quicken Spell as originally written was useful, but not overpowered.

I would even say that this revision makes it useless, Improved Metamagic becomes far more interesting. I can't see taking the feat twice now to automatically cast scorching ray as a free action against CR 29s+.

Andargor

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I would even say that this revision makes it useless, Improved Metamagic becomes far more interesting. I can't see taking the feat twice now to automatically cast scorching ray as a free action against CR 29s+.

Maybe not. But it would let a fighter/mage automatically cast whirling blade as a swift action--something that would still be useful against CR 29+. It would also let any mage put up defenses like mirror image, alter self, see invisibility (if the character doesn't have it permanent) and blur without costing an action, buff his weapon with sonic weapon, and do a host of other things. And the first feat would make true strike a swift action. (Worth it? Heck yeah). Some of them would usually be worth it and some would only sometimes be worth it, but freeing up 5th and 6th level slots for longer duration of more powerful spells would increase both a mage's versatility (more varied spell slots available) and power.

 

[FEADIN]

The answer is still no because I has wrote before:"...even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

And the rule says:"Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots."

You cast the spell as a higher level:5, but you can quicken only those you cast as 0,1,2,3 rd level spells.

 

[andargor]

Maybe not. But it would let a fighter/mage automatically cast whirling blade as a swift action--something that would still be useful against CR 29+. It would also let any mage put up defenses like mirror image, alter self, see invisibility (if the character doesn't have it permanent) and blur without costing an action, buff his weapon with sonic weapon, and do a host of other things. And the first feat would make true strike a swift action. (Worth it? Heck yeah). Some of them would usually be worth it and some would only sometimes be worth it, but freeing up 5th and 6th level slots for longer duration of more powerful spells would increase both a mage's versatility (more varied spell slots available) and power.

I admit that it may be useful for melee-types. But with a requirement of Spellcraft 30 ranks, this is a hefty cost for a slim advantage.

And true strike is overrated for mage-types. A +20 to hit is meaningless since most spells that can benefit from it are cast as ranged touch or touch attacks. Personally, the only trouble I've had was against a bunch of Glooms which had insane touch ACs. I could've used moment of prescience for that critical ranged touch attack, or an AoE spell with a Fort save... Otherwise, I always hit.

Lastly, 5th and 6th level slots aren't really a problem at those levels. Again, I wouldn't spend such a slot on 1st or 2nd level spells that are quickened. I would rather keep my disintegrates et. al.

The answer is still no because I has wrote before:"...even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

And the rule says:"Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots."

You cast the spell as a higher level:5, but you can quicken only those you cast as 0,1,2,3 rd level spells.

Again, you are saying that metamagicked spells are higher level spells, and I read that they are the same level spells but cast in a higher level slot. Let's agree to disagree.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Andargor

 

[Patlin]

I would consider an empowered fireball to be 5th level, if I was the DM, and view the argument as semantic. More importantly though, look at Complete Arcane's version of Automatic Quicken Spell. It's been significantly reduced in power, and replaces the 3.0 version.

 

[andargor]

I would consider an empowered fireball to be 5th level, if I was the DM, and view the argument as semantic. More importantly though, look at Complete Arcane's version of Automatic Quicken Spell. It's been significantly reduced in power, and replaces the 3.0 version.

For the record, the way you and FEADIN describe it is the way I've been playing it (the empowered fireball would not be quickened with the previous version of Automatic Quicken Spell applied once).

Only just recently I've re-read the description, and I had my doubts. Unless my line of thinking is confirmed by other opinions, however, I'll continue playing it that way.

Andargor

 

[FEADIN]

You can cast 0-3 rd level spells without using a higher level spell slot but empower makes you use a 5 th level spell slot so you can't use the two feats together because it's impossible to meet the two conditions.
The two feats are correct but exclude each other.
Simple no?

 

[TheGogmagog]

The same question: Can you use a metamagic silence rod on a maximized Fireball?

I would say by RAW you can. In all references to metamagic, a 3rd level spell is a 3rd level spell, no matter what slot is used or required to memorize it. Heighten spell is the only exeption to this.

The change to Automatic Quicken is sad. I could see taking it once for the first level buffing spells which scale, but Don't see taking it 5 times. I think I would rather have the higher level spell slots, to metamagic 9th level spells.