Automatic Quicken Spell and metamagic

[green slime]

Automatic Quicken has been updated to 3.5 from 3.0 in Complete Arcane to only affect 0 or 1st level spell slots.

And I'd rule no, the spell being Automatically Quickened must be memorised in a 1st level slot (or 3rd level slot, in the event of having taken Automatic Quicken Spell three times.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Automatic Quicken has been updated to 3.5 from 3.0 in Complete Arcane to only affect 0 or 1st level spell slots.

SRD still shows Automatic Quicken as 0-3.
I also looked through Complete Arcane and the Errata files.
Where has it been updated?

 

[LokiDR]

SRD still shows Automatic Quicken as 0-3.
I also looked through Complete Arcane and the Errata files.
Where has it been updated?

Complete Arcane, page 192. The epic rules are in the back.

 

[Sledge]

The abusive reading is unfortunately correct by the rules. The way this is easily seen is that a quickened fireball only uses a 3rd level slot. So if you empower a spell in a 3rd level slot it takes a 5th level slot.
The complete arcane doesn't fix this, but instead cripples the automatic quicken feat. (Yes crippled compared to the Improved Capacity) Epic levels need a little tweaking to get them to work. Just following the RAW will have major problems.

 

[FEADIN]

I don't see the problem:

Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Metamagic Feats
...
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Since the two conditions must be fullfiled to use the feats if you have only one possible that's the way the spell works: as a 0-3 rd level spell slot quickenened or as a 5th level spell slot empowered.
The wording is good because the feats speak of "spell slot" not spell level.

 

[andargor]

I don't see the problem:

Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Metamagic Feats
...
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Since the two conditions must be fullfiled to use the feats if you have only one possible that's the way the spell works: as a 0-3 rd level spell slot quickenened or as a 5th level spell slot empowered.
The wording is good because the feats speak of "spell slot" not spell level.

Ah, I see your objection. The "without using higher-level spell slots" is a comparison to the normal situation without this feat where you would have to use Quicken Spell instead, and hence use a higher-level slot to have them quickened.

I see we are reading the "Metamagic Feats" entry differently. It does say "higher than normal" slots, but the next phrase says the spell remains of the same level. And Automatic Quicken Spell mentions "0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells"... It doesn't address slots.

Andargor

 

[FEADIN]

We can argue forever on what is written, what it meens exactly....

Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Metamagic Feats
...
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

You want to say that the automatic quicken overrule the text on metamagic?
They both speak of spell slot and they give a precision for spell level, which is in turn overruled by Heighten spell (which can be wrong if we refer to the general text on Metamagic ).

 

[scottin]

Andargor, at first reading, I was really opposed to your suggestion and disagreed with your interpretation. However, after continuing to read the thread, I have actually come over to your side. And this is probably why the feat was nerfed in 3.5e

We can argue forever on what is written, what it meens exactly....

Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Automatic Quicken Spell
...
The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD 3.5
Metamagic Feats
...
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

You want to say that the automatic quicken overrule the text on metamagic?
They both speak of spell slot and they give a precision for spell level, which is in turn overruled by Heighten spell (which can be wrong if we refer to the general text on Metamagic ).

Since the text on Metamagic feats expressly claims that using metamagic (other than heighten) does not change the level of the spell then an empowered fireball is a 3rd level spell cast from a 5th level spell slot, just as if you were to cast a regular fireball using a 5th level spot. It is still a 3rd level spell. Since the 3e version of the feat allows you to automatically quicken a 3rd level spell, the empowered fireball should be automatically quickened. (UNLESS there is another rule that I am missing)

Again, probably why WOTC nerfed the feat. Way to powerful inthe 3e version. IMO anyway.

Stephen Cottingim

 

[LokiDR]

Lesser Globe of Involnerability will stop an empowered fireball, because it is still a 3rd level spell despite using a 5th level slot. Likewise, the 3e automatic quick spell feat would quicken the empowered fireball, even though it uses a 5th level slot. The description of automatic quicken says "The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots." In other words, all spells of 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level are quickened without the caster using higher level slots.

I'll say that is powerful, but I think epic is out of whack in a lot of ways.

 

[FEADIN]

One more time you overlook what the text says for Empower....
EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level

The description of automatic quicken says "The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots."
Nowhere it is written that Automatic Quicken overrule the text of Empower, you have to use a higher level spell slot to empower, you cannot use Automatic Quicken because it becomes a 5th level slot and the definition is exclusive:"....without using higher-level spell slots".

Maybe you're right but I think that the way I read it is the rule (intended) and they overlooked the spelling or some détails as in numerous other texts, they scaled it down because with multispell taken 2 or more times spellcasters would become Thermonuclear bomb.