Avenger. What am I missing?
- Thread starter ki11erDM
- Start date
ObsidianCrane
First Post
I've played one game with my Avenger, and the key is mobility to be able to keep getting to your Oathed target without any more enemies being adjacent to you.
Encourage your party to kill other monsters, especially ones that are not your oath target and that are next to you if you cannot move away.
This lets the Avenger shine. In 3 encounters I missed 1x. Doing d10+4 each round stacks up fast, and that isn't optimised either (Dragonborn make lousy Avengers).
Encourage your party to kill other monsters, especially ones that are not your oath target and that are next to you if you cannot move away.
This lets the Avenger shine. In 3 encounters I missed 1x. Doing d10+4 each round stacks up fast, and that isn't optimised either (Dragonborn make lousy Avengers).
Old Gumphrey
First Post
Jagged Fullblade imo.
Oni
First Post
The math has already been done, you can find it here:
Power Attack worth it for an Avenger? - Wizards Community
yesnomu
First Post
Eh. It's more flavorful, but mechanically you don't really need the extra prof bonus. That and I hate rolling low on weapon dice--my barb's Mordenkrad has spoiled me.
On the other hand, if you play a Longtooth Shifter, you could grab HBO fairly easily and your OAs become pretty sweet. I dunno, up to the player.
DracoSuave
First Post
Alright, not counting criticals in this, because Power Attack doesn't really affect that side of things (+3 damage is +3 damage, critical or not)
But....
If damage after PA is more than damage before PA, then PA, otherwise, do not. The math for when to PA when not oathed doesn't change... it's a fairly simple formula of when to and when not to.
But, when you Oath.... the math gets -very- complex.
If your probabilty to hit (before Oath) is p, and the average damage is d, then your DPR is:
pd before oath
pd+(1-p)pd=
pd+pd-p^2d=
2pd+p^2d
At heroic, you're exchanging 10% to hit for 3 points of damage.
So, if 2(p-0.1)(d+3)+[(p-0.1)^2](d+3) > 2pd+[p^2]d then PA is good.
(2p-0.2)(d+3)+[p^2-0.2p+0.02](d+3) > 2pd+[p^2]d
2pd - 0.2d + 6p - 0.6 + [p^2]d - 0.2pd + 0.02d + 3p^2 - 0.6p + 0.06 > 2pd + [p^2]d
6p - 0.6p - 0.6 + 0.06 - 0.2pd + 0.02d - 0.2d + 3p^2 > 0
5.4p - 0.54 - 0.2pd - 0.18d + 3p^2 > 0
5.4p + 3p^2 > 0.18d + 0.54 + pd/50
Egad this formula is a headache. But take your chance to hit, plug it in, your average damage per hit (which may or may not include Censure), and work it. Use an Excel spread sheet.
So, let's say I have a dwarven persuing avenger with 18 Wis, and 16 Dex. I'm using a mordenkrad, with DWT, at level 1. Average damage per hit is (2d5+2)+4+2= 14
Without Censure:
7 TRUE
8 TRUE
9 TRUE
10 TRUE
11 FALSE
12 FALSE
13 FALSE
So, if I can hit on a 10 without power attack, it is good to power attack.
However with Censure, my average damage per hit goes up to 18:
4 TRUE
5 TRUE
6 TRUE
7 TRUE
8 FALSE
9 FALSE
10 FALSE
11 FALSE
12 FALSE
13 FALSE
So... in this case, it is not a good idea to power attack unless I can hit on a 7 (or more favorably)
Power attack gets worse the more damage you do, but for avengers, the math changes a bit. If you're using a fullblade, however, your average damage is only 10.5 for this character before Censure:
9 TRUE
10 TRUE
11 TRUE
12 TRUE
13 FALSE
14 FALSE
15 FALSE
So use it if you can hit with a 12.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Working on a version that works across tiers.
But....
If damage after PA is more than damage before PA, then PA, otherwise, do not. The math for when to PA when not oathed doesn't change... it's a fairly simple formula of when to and when not to.
But, when you Oath.... the math gets -very- complex.
If your probabilty to hit (before Oath) is p, and the average damage is d, then your DPR is:
pd before oath
pd+(1-p)pd=
pd+pd-p^2d=
2pd+p^2d
At heroic, you're exchanging 10% to hit for 3 points of damage.
So, if 2(p-0.1)(d+3)+[(p-0.1)^2](d+3) > 2pd+[p^2]d then PA is good.
(2p-0.2)(d+3)+[p^2-0.2p+0.02](d+3) > 2pd+[p^2]d
2pd - 0.2d + 6p - 0.6 + [p^2]d - 0.2pd + 0.02d + 3p^2 - 0.6p + 0.06 > 2pd + [p^2]d
6p - 0.6p - 0.6 + 0.06 - 0.2pd + 0.02d - 0.2d + 3p^2 > 0
5.4p - 0.54 - 0.2pd - 0.18d + 3p^2 > 0
5.4p + 3p^2 > 0.18d + 0.54 + pd/50
Egad this formula is a headache. But take your chance to hit, plug it in, your average damage per hit (which may or may not include Censure), and work it. Use an Excel spread sheet.
So, let's say I have a dwarven persuing avenger with 18 Wis, and 16 Dex. I'm using a mordenkrad, with DWT, at level 1. Average damage per hit is (2d5+2)+4+2= 14
Without Censure:
7 TRUE
8 TRUE
9 TRUE
10 TRUE
11 FALSE
12 FALSE
13 FALSE
So, if I can hit on a 10 without power attack, it is good to power attack.
However with Censure, my average damage per hit goes up to 18:
4 TRUE
5 TRUE
6 TRUE
7 TRUE
8 FALSE
9 FALSE
10 FALSE
11 FALSE
12 FALSE
13 FALSE
So... in this case, it is not a good idea to power attack unless I can hit on a 7 (or more favorably)
Power attack gets worse the more damage you do, but for avengers, the math changes a bit. If you're using a fullblade, however, your average damage is only 10.5 for this character before Censure:
9 TRUE
10 TRUE
11 TRUE
12 TRUE
13 FALSE
14 FALSE
15 FALSE
So use it if you can hit with a 12.
Hope that helps.
EDIT: Working on a version that works across tiers.
Last edited:
DracoSuave
First Post
Alright. So here's how to make your own Power Attack excel sheet for Avengers with Oath active.
In square B1, put your average damage per hit for the weapon before power attack.
In square D1, put your power attack bonus.
In square A3, put in the number 1. Then in A4, put down 2, and so-on until you get to 18. This is your 'if I can hit on a ____' column.
In square B3, put in =H3>E3 and then copy that down. This will come up 'True' if PA is a good idea, and 'False' if PA is a bad idea.
In square C3, put in =1.05-A3/20 and copy it down.
D3: =C3*(1-C3)+C3 and copy down.
E3: =D3*$B$1 and copy down. The dollar signs are -important-.
F3: =C3-0.1 and copy down.
G3: =F3*(1-F3)+F3 and copy down.
H3: =G3*($B$1+$D$1) and copy down.
This will create a tool that will tell you, with a given average damage per hit, and damage bonus for tier from Power Attack, whether PAing is good or not.
In square B1, put your average damage per hit for the weapon before power attack.
In square D1, put your power attack bonus.
In square A3, put in the number 1. Then in A4, put down 2, and so-on until you get to 18. This is your 'if I can hit on a ____' column.
In square B3, put in =H3>E3 and then copy that down. This will come up 'True' if PA is a good idea, and 'False' if PA is a bad idea.
In square C3, put in =1.05-A3/20 and copy it down.
D3: =C3*(1-C3)+C3 and copy down.
E3: =D3*$B$1 and copy down. The dollar signs are -important-.
F3: =C3-0.1 and copy down.
G3: =F3*(1-F3)+F3 and copy down.
H3: =G3*($B$1+$D$1) and copy down.
This will create a tool that will tell you, with a given average damage per hit, and damage bonus for tier from Power Attack, whether PAing is good or not.
RefinedBean
First Post
DracoSuave, you rock my world, I'm definitely cluing my friend (playing a 1st level Avenger) into the math, in case he decides to take it.
I'll offer a less complicated alternative: Try it for a level, and if it doesn't work out, retrain it to Durable. Can never go wrong with Durable.
I'll offer a less complicated alternative: Try it for a level, and if it doesn't work out, retrain it to Durable. Can never go wrong with Durable.
