D&D 5E Avoiding High Level Play - Player or DM Preference?

[Garthanos]

Is it player preference or dungeon master preference that is ending campaigns/adventure paths before high levels?

Or is it system design that discourages interest, I mean 4e had a DMG for heroic tier and paragon tier ... ie 2 and 3 but no 4th. This is not a new pattern.

I do not actually think that is so.

The tiers represent different flavors of play in a transition that is not necessarily natural to everybody especially at the rate of advancement D&D seems to present. I do not think blaming anything is actually necessary assumption.

 

[Shiroiken]

I hear what you are saying, but I look at it a little differently. I want to provide a campaign where players can explore their character's story. I want the players to dictate when they are done and ready to retire a character.

Ideally the DM should merge each character's story into the overall campaign as well, so that when the DM's story is complete, there shouldn't be anything left to tell. Sometimes I've had a character retire during a campaign because their story was done, and they weren't invested enough in the DM's story to continue. I wasn't necessarily done with the character, but it made the most sense for them to be done (plus it allowed me to create a new character and explore their story).

 

[Ogre Mage]

I think this is key. I dont think that D&D has ever really given great direction to DMs in high level play - and I think 5e is no exception. For one thing high level play often involves players dictating the action and changing the campaign world. This requires having DMs who are both able to 'let go' of their world to some degree and also willing to push the encounter mechanics beyond the guidelines.

I was watching an episode of Web DM about high level play. They said high level D&D has become this chicken or egg first scenario where WotC's market surveys find that the majority of players prefer around Levels 1-12. As a result, most of the playtesting, focus, etc. is on getting those levels done right. Players complain high level play is unsupported, unfinished, unbalanced, etc. and they avoid it. WotC's customer surveys again come back showing preference for low to mid levels and the cycle continues. The entire episode is about 20 minutes and has some interesting ideas on how to address high level play.

Web DM on high level play in 5E

 

[ad_hoc]

I was watching an episode of Web DM about high level play. They said high level D&D has become this chicken or egg first scenario where WotC's market surveys find that the majority of players prefer around Levels 1-12. As a result, most of the playtesting, focus, etc. is on getting those levels done right. Players complain high level play is unsupported, unfinished, unbalanced, etc. and they avoid it. WotC's customer surveys again come back showing preference for low to mid levels and the cycle continues. The entire episode is about 20 minutes and has some interesting ideas on how to address high level play.

Web DM on high level play in 5E

Even if high level play was considered to be done well we would still have the majority of people not interested in it.

It's a genre and relatability thing.

 

[S'mon]

It's a genre and relatability thing.

If you don't like the superhero genre then modern high level play won't have much attraction I think. There is also the power imbalance issue - certainly in 3e/PF you can very easily get one player with Dr Strange, another with Iron Man, and a couple more with Hawkeye & Black Widow. 4e & 5e tend to have a lot better PC balance - more Thor & Captain America, not Thor & Hawkeye.

 

[Coroc]

My AoW 5E campaign went to 20th (+ several epic boons) over 4 years of weekly play. There were multiple artifacts and legendary items in play at the end.

The party could all fly (Warlock on a broom, Druid [in earth elemental form] via a magic item, Swashbuckler via paired magic swords, Cleric/ Paladin via winged boots etc) shoot bolts of energy or whatever, teleport to the planes, true Resurrection, telepathically talk to each other, and be general bad asses.

They werent door kicking bar hopping mercenaries anymore, they were literally the Avengers.

It was actually awesome.

Zero to Hero is why players play the game. Let them I say. Those are the campaigns that those players will be talking about for the rest of their lives. And that's kind of why you DM!

You've just gotta hang in there as DM to gain the experience to know what you're doing. The first few times it will be a train wreck. But dont quit in frustration; gain experience doing it and it's bloody epic when you learn how to do it right.

Can you post some of your tricks, how did you keep the challenge up on your superheroes?

 

[Coroc]

Example of converted Pathfinder monster - as here, the CR generally works out 2-3 higher:

5e Monsters - Rune Giant
This giant’s skin is black and pitted, like roughly cast iron, and etched with glowing red runes.

Rune Giant CR 20

LE Gargantuan humanoid (giant)
Init +0; Senses low-light vision; Passive Perception 21

Proficiency +6

Str 30 (+10), Dex 11 (+0), Con 24 (+7), Int 14 (+2), Wis 21 (+5), Cha 18 (+4)

AC 20
hp 405
Good Saves STR +16 CON +13 INT +8 WIS +11
Immune cold, electricity, fire

OFFENSE

Speed 50 ft.
Melee Greatsword (2 attacks) +16 dam 45 slashing (crit 67 slasing on 19–20) and an SML target is Pushed back 10' and knocked prone.
Ranged Javelin +16 dam 31 piercing (crit 46 piercing/19-20) plus 21 lightning damage; range 60'/240' and a SML target is Pushed back 10' and knocked prone.
Space 20 ft.; Reach 20 ft.

Equipment: Greatsword, 2 javelins.

Special Attacks command giants, runes, spark shower
Spell-Like Abilities (Spell Save DC 18; Spell Attack +10)

At will—charm person; suggestion
3/day—mass charm monster; dominate person
1/day— true seeing; air walk

STATISTICS

Skills Athletics +16; Craft +8; Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +8, Perception +11
Languages Common, Giant, Terran

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Command Giant

Giants have disadvantage on saves vs charm or compulsion effects used by rune giants.

Runes

Whenever a rune giant uses its spark shower or spell-like abilities, it can cause the runes on its body to flash with light. All creatures within 10 feet of the giant must make a DC 18 CON save or be Blinded until the end of their next turn.

Spark Shower

As an action, a rune giant can cause a shower of sparks to erupt out of one of the runes on its body. These sparks function as a 30-ft. cone; 45 fire and 45 electricity damage; DC 18 DEX save half; recharge 5-6.

Legendary Resistance 3/day: The Rune Giant can choose to pass a failed save.

Legendary Action 1/turn, max 3/round: At the end of another creature's turn the Rune Giant may make a Greatsword attack or use Spark Shower (if available).

Well this one kills 1 character per round, no? If the party does lose initiative or does not dish out the 405 damage in the first round it is resurrection time for them after the combat?

 

[S'mon]

Well this one kills 1 character per round, no? If the party does lose initiative or does not dish out the 405 damage in the first round it is resurrection time for them after the combat?

If the level 20 PCs are truly pathetic, I guess so!

A typical level 20 party will have either an infinite-rage Barbarian with effectively 600+ hit points, or an AC 30 Fighter or Paladin type, to tank the monster. An infinite-wildshape Druid can also tank in a pinch using eg earth elemental forms.

To kill a PC you need to take them to 0 then inflict 3 failed death saves. At level 20 this is NOT EASY, believe me! I managed it recently when an ancient spellcasting blue dragon with animate objects as a bonus action attacked the druid, who had unwisely approached it not in wildshape. It took her to 0 hp quickly, then its animated treasure hoard battered her to death before anyone could intervene. She did get Revivified after the battle by a Paladin PC though.

IME the Rune Giant I posted could be solo'd by a level 20 Barbarian - I've seen a level 19 Barbarian defeat much worse (Kainos Warbringer, an AC 27 Empyrean with 2 attacks, save or stunned on each hit) in a solo duel.

 

[Coroc]

If the level 20 PCs are truly pathetic, I guess so!

A typical level 20 party will have either an infinite-rage Barbarian with effectively 600+ hit points, or an AC 30 Fighter or Paladin type, to tank the monster. An infinite-wildshape Druid can also tank in a pinch using eg earth elemental forms.

To kill a PC you need to take them to 0 then inflict 3 failed death saves. At level 20 this is NOT EASY, believe me! I managed it recently when an ancient spellcasting blue dragon with animate objects as a bonus action attacked the druid, who had unwisely approached it not in wildshape. It took her to 0 hp quickly, then its animated treasure hoard battered her to death before anyone could intervene. She did get Revivified after the battle by a Paladin PC though.

IME the Rune Giant I posted could be solo'd by a level 20 Barbarian - I've seen a level 19 Barbarian defeat much worse (Kainos Warbringer, an AC 27 Empyrean with 2 attacks, save or stunned on each hit) in a solo duel.

Ok, I get it that this guy is no challenge for a level 20 group. Still for any PC with less than 90 HP this one is deadly. Let us assume he picks the Level 15 party wizard, who got 14 Con and 95 HP.

I know, I know, a quick healer can make the wizard stand up right away out of his death saves in my example.

But massive damage inflicted e.g. a crit. on a PC down on health could still outright kill a PC.

 

[S'mon]

Ok, I get it that this guy is no challenge for a level 20 group. Still for any PC with less than 90 HP this one is deadly. Let us assume he picks the Level 15 party wizard, who got 14 Con and 95 HP.

I know, I know, a quick healer can make the wizard stand up right away out of his death saves in my example.

But massive damage inflicted e.g. a crit. on a PC down on health could still outright kill a PC.

Yes if the party Wiz-20 is strolling along when a Rune Giant pops up and whacks him that's bad news for the Wizard. Wizards should avoid such occurrences.

edit: with crit doing 67 damage I don't see how this could kill a level 20 pc outright, even one on 0 hp. They all have over 70 hp - I guess a CON 8 Wizard would have 62 hp. CON 10 82 hp.