AVP2 excerpt: Story Items! ARMOR!

[Twowolves]

So.. this thread isn't about the Aliens vs Predators sequel??

 

[malraux]

Yeah, add me to the underwhelmed list. I mean its nice they include the flavor and I do appreciate it, but I was hoping it would have been like Fallen Seraphs suggestion and been something that could grow with you as you level. Just adding back fluff to magic item descriptions does not an impressive preview make.

The way they presented it seemed like it would be a brand new type of item.

These are the same items, just with some plot hooks thrown in?

Bleh. I like what they tried to do, but if it's just another +1 sword, the history isn't important. Items you're going to have quests and history around should stand out from the crowd in some significant way. They have to be worth paying attention to.

Good intention, poor execution.

Pretty much this. I kinda like the idea of a semi-artifact like category of magic items (ie, there's a story reason why the item is cool, and the item grows in power as the character grows in power). I actually dislike fluff heavy disposable items. That just cheapens the fluff, IMO. It's like pawning your family's heirloom jewelry.

I believe this is the "darned if you do" part of, "darned if you do, darned if you don't." Since the 4E launch WotC has been criticized for all crunch/no fluff. As a result, they've presented fluff...to criticism.

it depends on if it is the same people doing both sets of criticism. I've been reasonably happy with the level of fluff in the crunch books, and don't own many of the fluff books yet.

 

[catsclaw227]

The fluff is neat, but come-on. These could have been done like Legacy items or other items that increase in power as you progress through the story. They can tie a "cost" to advancing a weapon or armor by requiring the expenditure of residuum or gold, but that should be woven into the story.

These could have been really cool, and I feel like they went halfway.

Were these to simpy appease the call for more fluff? AV2 is due next month, so these have already gone through final development already.

 

[LostSoul]

I think that fluff is really useful.

Let's say that a player wants to get a suit of Holy Radiance Armour.

The DM could rule that he needs to go to a corrupt town and pray in the open in the town square, converting the town to Pelor while exposing himself to a lot of danger. If he does that, poof, his armour becomes Holy Radiance.

Or he could tell the players the story presented in the book and place the armour in Xelfide. The players can decide if they want to go get it or not.

It's a great way to get a player-driven adventure without having to do much work.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think that fluff is really useful.

Let's say that a player wants to get a suit of Holy Radiance Armour.

The DM could rule that he needs to go to a corrupt town and pray in the open in the town square, converting the town to Pelor while exposing himself to a lot of danger. If he does that, poof, his armour becomes Holy Radiance.

Or he could tell the players the story presented in the book and place the armour in Xelfide. The players can decide if they want to go get it or not.

It's a great way to get a player-driven adventure without having to do much work.

That's an interesting take on it.

Of course, that sentence might just be another way to say: "It's not RAW, but it sounds like a fine houserule".

Hey, I consider this learning experience for WotC. It's a start, but they haven't quite found what people expect them to have. It's not like the fluff is horrible or boring, it's just that we learn that people don't like it to have no impact.

Oh, and from me what they can also learn: Create some fiction. Not too much, but do more than retelling of stories. In a way it's the "show, not tell" concept, except you still can just tell a story. But the perspective is different. Again, the story of the Halflings could have been presented with the entire story in a few paragraphs, and then a piece of fiction describing how they entered the lair.

Of course, this takes a lot of space, so I am not sure how often one should really do this. There is alway the problem of fluff/crunch ratio in books. maybe it is actually a good idea to start with lot sof crunch-heavy stuff, and then soften it up a little?

In the end, the fluff/crunch ratio is probably something very subjetive.
Maybe a start is not to treat them "equally". Not every type of crunch needs the same amount of fluff. Maybe it is okay to just have around 4 to 8 pages in a 200 page book that are devoted to some "immersive fluff".

I certainly see no reason to not order AV2. Legacy/Earthdawn like magic items would sure have been cooler and an even better reason.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I suppose I have to agree with a couple of the above posters, that the fluff is not terribly terrible, just bad, but why not tie the fluff to better items? Both of these are the same kind of get a nice power at low levels and just a +4,5,6 at higher levels items. At least tie the fluff to items that improve a bit in a real way than a very boring +x to the item. Granted, both items, being at wills is pretty good, but both could be properties just as easily.

No, not impressed. Fluff has its place, I guess, but not random fluff for mediocre items, especially fluff that would have to have a place made for it in the campaign world.

 

[LostSoul]

What were you guys hoping for?

 

[LightPhoenix]

I agree with everyone about the fluff being mostly pointless. It's neat, but in a book that is pretty much the definition of crunch, it feels out of place.

The big problem though isn't a fluff/crunch ratio. The problem is the idea that it needs to be a ratio at all. Ideally, the fluff and the crunch should complement each other like point and counterpoint. They need to be one whole from two parts.

I want to make it clear that I think this is a problem with WotC and us customers alike. I don't think WotC has really managed to successfully integrate fluff and crunch into a whole. However, I also think that there's a fundamental belief that permeates us gamers that one precludes the other. That is to say, that crunch precludes fluff, and vice versa. There are those that decry fluff and those that lament not having it, but both camps will complain about any attempt to combine the two. In an attempt to placate both camps, books got divides into "crunch" books and "fluff" books. Of course, now we have books (and articles) that read like textbooks and books with no substance. Somewhere along the line the idea that both could co-exist got lost.

In the case of this preview (and presumably the next two) the fluff and the crunch don't really complement each other at all. I like several of the suggestions that people have put forth here in the thread attempting to integrate the two (especially LostSoul's idea). Personally, I would love to see an article in AV2 suggesting how to integrate items and story (or, if you will, crunch and fluff), for both DMs and players.

I'll be a little more excited for the previews on Ammunition, since that will be something new. While I didn't like the Immurements (in either incarnation) I do respect them trying to do something new there as well. I think that's my biggest rub with the article - new armors and weapons are necessary, but it's the new stuff that's going to push me towards buying the book or not. That's what I think they should be previewing.

 

[catsclaw227]

Oh, and from me what they can also learn: Create some fiction. Not too much, but do more than retelling of stories. In a way it's the "show, not tell" concept, except you still can just tell a story. But the perspective is different. Again, the story of the Halflings could have been presented with the entire story in a few paragraphs, and then a piece of fiction describing how they entered the lair.

You know who did this nicely in their blog review of Divine Power? Geek's Dream Girl.

Her two blog entries were awesome.

Divine Power: E’s Top Five Fun Ways to Roleplay a Cleric

Divine Power: E’s Top Five Fun Ways to Roleplay an Avenger

These are good examples of adding a paragraph or two of fluff that do the powers justice.

 

[Klaus]

What were you guys hoping for?

I was hoping for a Weapons of Legacy-tyle implementation, with an item's powers tied to a campaign arc of sorts.