Awfully Alarmed About Armour

[jadrax]

wow, 9 pages for armor rules that were only place holders. I can only imagine how many pages the thread on the actual rules will be once they come out. 99 maybe?

Half a page, tops.

But there will be a 99 page thread on the place holder rules for Smoke Sticks at the same time.

 

[B.T.]

Hey, guys? I'm pretty sure that the least important thing about D&D armor is simulating man vs. elephant scenarios. If I were to put money on anything, it would be an elephant having a Strength score high enough to render any armor useless.

 

[jadrax]

Hey, guys? I'm pretty sure that the least important thing about D&D armor is simulating man vs. elephant scenarios. If I were to put money on anything, it would be an elephant having a Strength score high enough to render any armor useless.

If this edition does not finally deliver realistic mano-a-jumbo combat, D&D is dead to me.

 

[Derren]

Hey, guys? I'm pretty sure that the least important thing about D&D armor is simulating man vs. elephant scenarios.

You are right. I mean, how often does it happen that the PCs fight against huge or garganutan monstrosities?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

If we're going to add more dice rolling to armor and defenses, I'd prefer to just get rid of AC completely and go with active defenses (i.e. parry, dodge, and block.) Dexterity would make dodging easier, shields would be used to block, and actual armor would have DR which absorbs damage. Light armor would be less cumbersome and thus not hinder dodging as much as heavy armor; on the other hand, heavy armor would absorb more actual damage. That's not to say getting hit wouldn't still hurt; I've worn armor, and it most certainly does still hurt and bruise you, but that's highly preferable to the far worse effects of a weapon striking my flesh & bone body.

However, I'm aware that many people would decry that as "not being D&D."

No way I'd advocate something like that for every attack. That's why the extra rolls would be only when someone got hit with a critical.

If you think about it, that covers a lot of damage for relatively little extra complication. Who wants to roll every time to turn the goblins 3.5 average damage into maybe 2.7 average damager (or whatever the math works out to be)? Getting dinged down a few points at a time is the point of having AC and hit points in the first place.

Criticals are already sitting a bit uncomfortably outside of normal AC and hit point methods anyway. We have them, because people like them. So a bit of back and forth isn't so bad on those. And whereas I don't much care for a "confirmation" roll by the guy doing the crit, the idea does appeal of, "Hey, the orc critted you, max damage," goes kind of well with, "Hey, I rolled and blocked him with my shield, I only take normal damage instead."

 

[Argyle King]

No way I'd advocate something like that for every attack. That's why the extra rolls would be only when someone got hit with a critical.

If you think about it, that covers a lot of damage for relatively little extra complication. Who wants to roll every time to turn the goblins 3.5 average damage into maybe 2.7 average damager (or whatever the math works out to be)? Getting dinged down a few points at a time is the point of having AC and hit points in the first place.

Criticals are already sitting a bit uncomfortably outside of normal AC and hit point methods anyway. We have them, because people like them. So a bit of back and forth isn't so bad on those. And whereas I don't much care for a "confirmation" roll by the guy doing the crit, the idea does appeal of, "Hey, the orc critted you, max damage," goes kind of well with, "Hey, I rolled and blocked him with my shield, I only take normal damage instead."

I don't expect my idea to be popular among the more general D&D crowd. However, I'd prefer combat to be more dynamic and allow the defender to be involved instead of just standing there.

Active defenses also removes most of the need for things like immediate actions.

I dunno... AC is one of those areas where I'm fine with it while only playing D&D. Then I take a break from D&D for a while and see how other games do it. When I come back, it rubs me the wrong way. It's not something I see as a huge issue; it mostly starts to bug me when I start looking at how weapons and armor work in D&D.

 

[Gorgoroth]

...

in keeping with the KISS philosophy, heavy armor could negate crits, period. Regular damage only in plate.

This would be in line with the dwarf being immune to poison, be extremely simple, fast, effective against those big blows, scale effortlessly with monster damage die, etc etc etc

It's the most elegant way to make plate the ultimate armor, and would also mimick reality quite well. It's slow to kill someone in plate, taking a lot of hits to wear them down. And forget about chopping their head off in one fell swoop, you'll have to pin them down and take their helmet off for that (helpless condition could negate crit immunity)

Let's say splint mail gives two AC less than plate, but costs 1/20th of the price. So you get 10% more protection from plate, vs 20x the cost. Sounds like a bad deal, right? But when you say, buy this 1500gp shiny armor and you are now immune to critical hits, period...now THAT's something to get the people drooling over that lamborghini armor of yours.

 

[Argyle King]

in keeping with the KISS philosophy, heavy armor could negate crits, period. Regular damage only in plate.

This would be in line with the dwarf being immune to poison, be extremely simple, fast, effective against those big blows, scale effortlessly with monster damage die, etc etc etc

It's the most elegant way to make plate the ultimate armor, and would also mimick reality quite well. It's slow to kill someone in plate, taking a lot of hits to wear them down. And forget about chopping their head off in one fell swoop, you'll have to pin them down and take their helmet off for that (helpless condition could negate crit immunity)

Let's say splint mail gives two AC less than plate, but costs 1/20th of the price. So you get 10% more protection from plate, vs 20x the cost. Sounds like a bad deal, right? But when you say, buy this 1500gp shiny armor and you are now immune to critical hits, period...now THAT's something to get the people drooling over that lamborghini armor of yours.

I'd say that would sound reasonable for some cases, but not all. Certain weapons were invented with the idea and purpose of puncturing armor. I realize that is far beyond the granularity level of D&D, but I mention it because I feel there is some justification for plate not simply making you completely immune to crits.

 

[frankthedm]

I just want to jump in to say that I love the idea of starting low and buying better armor over the first few levels.

Problem with that is then humanoid's armor becomes unintended treasure. If a fighter can't afford plate armor really soon into the first or second adventure, then humanoid foes who should have heavier armors wind up walking around in way too many GPs. IMNSHO 60GP plate mail is superior to 700gp plate mail; sure 700GP platemail takes an extra adventure to afford, but it also swells adventure profits for LEVELS afterward.

I dunno... AC is one of those areas where I'm fine with it while only playing D&D. Then I take a break from D&D for a while and see how other games do it. When I come back, it rubs me the wrong way. It's not something I see as a huge issue; it mostly starts to bug me when I start looking at how weapons and armor work in D&D.

My group's host feels the same way.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Problem with that is then humanoid's armor becomes unintended treasure. If a fighter can't afford plate armor really soon into the first or second adventure, then humanoid foes who should have heavier armors wind up walking around in way too many GPs. IMNSHO 60GP plate mail is superior to 700gp plate mail; sure 700GP platemail takes an extra adventure to afford, but it also swells adventure profits for LEVELS afterward.My group's host feels the same way.

You have a good point, but what it really means is that an NPC in plate mail isn't a first or second level monster. Also, plate mail has to be custom fitted, which is expensive.

Basically, if high quality mundane gear is valuable, it means it's also fairly rare, just like magic items.