[B.A.D.D] Red Discussion

[LuYangShih]

Hmm. Good Point. I just don't want it to appear that I've thrown tons of monsters at them to make the point. In point of fact the Meepites (as I've nicknamed them) are mostly about offense, and much less on the defense. They've always been rapid-strike in strategy.

If the Dragons have been scrying them, and know about them, they would realize this and take advantage of it. Look, if you really want these Dragons to be memorable and powerful, pull no punches. High level PCs have almost limitless power at their command. With one bad roll on a Destruction/Disintegrate spell, for example, all the best tactics in the world won't save the Dragon from death. Even using all the tactics I described above, I wouldn't expect the Dragons to survive unscathed, if at all.

Not a bad idea, but I'd kill them first, believe it or not. The Reds would never molly-coddle them, and they'd never believe them. They'd assume the player was dead, now or later. And they'd be right.

Well, that's good. Like I said above, do not hold back. Use the Dragons to the full extent of their capabilities and intelligence. Look at the mental statistics of elder Dragons. They are cunning, wise, and will not take chances, especially with people this powerful. Strike hard, strike fast, and remember that even if you do that, the PCs will probably win. And if they don't, they've learned to respect the power of Dragons.

The same. And they still have a mad-on for him, if just a little one. They quit Nightfang Spire after their second death (the Meepites are usually very cautious) and the firm knowledge that I was metagaming Gulthias and Redbone in particular to minimize their effectiveness. They knew that if I played the module as written, more and more players would die, and the fun factor would decrease. Of the four deaths that have occured in the game, two were in Nightfang Spire. Had we completed the module, I would have killed at least two more.


They did defeat Gulthias by Proxy at one point, killing an undead plant creature called a Greater Gulthite that he was controlling, but that's not really the same thing. The party quit the spire and basically went back to Gelban and said "If you dragons are so damned concerned about this place, YOU do something about it. We're not dying any more." Gelban agreed, and the next time they passed through the area (about six game-months later), they found a blast crater where the crevasse and the spire once were.

We had a lot of discussion about it in our story hour, around page 4, I think.

I just read it. I have to agree with the other poster in that thread, I think they should've finished it. I also don't think two deaths is that bad. Still, your campaign, if you weren't having fun, it was a good thing to stop.

 

[Lazybones]

I think I'm going to have to start reading this story hour again.

 

[LGodamus]

If Ashardalon created the plane using the spell demi plane seed....only one entrance...no teleport on planeshifting in or out ...only the front door... makes it easier to guard ,eh?

PS he could also set planar traits to do elemental damage and hamper good creatures.

 

[WizarDru]

If Ashardalon created the plane using the spell demi plane seed....only one entrance...no teleport on planeshifting in or out ...only the front door... makes it easier to guard ,eh?

PS he could also set planar traits to do elemental damage and hamper good creatures.

There are currently two access points into the plane itself. One gateway, and a second 'bolt hole' to the elemental plane of fire. Planar traits will definitely be against lawful and good creatures.

Ashardalon's fall from grace within the structure of the Reds is directly tied to his fear of death, something the reds are most afraid of, as they get more powerful. He attempted to make himself immortal, and divested some of his power to doing so, in exchange for power from the Shadow King. Where his heart once was, there is now a gaping black hole of shadow that pulls light and heat into it. Ashardalon's debt, however, is such that if he leaves the demi-plane, he risks being controlled by the Shadow King. As a result, he never leaves it, and it's been long enough now that he's almost agoraphobic about leaving.

I'm still tweaking how that will work, but I'm leaning towards having Ashardalon lose the Fire Subtype, but still have fire immunity, and grant it to anyone within a certain radius of him, as the shadowheart absorbs any such powerful sources of heat.

The thing to remember here is that Infernus runs the demiplane, and the fortress is his. Ashardalon is powerful, but he's become a tenant on his own land, so to speak. No one wants to try and evict him, but at the same time, they neither respect nor fear him like they once did. Infernus is almost as powerful as the re-stated Ashardalon and controls the Reds...as much as any single being can control such a lot of devious, backstabbing, fire-breathing winged bastards.

In point of fact, I've just realized who else should be there...the Red Lord and his Black Brotherhood minions, all now with a half-elemental (fire) template applied. Hmm. Evil clerics and monks on fire. That'll work. Good Stuff.

 

[WizarDru]

OK, so you're a smart dragon. Hell, you're bloody brilliant. You're building a fortress for yourself, with lave tubes for tunnels and caverns below. You've got hatchlings, servants, feast halls and prison cells. You've got your own demiplane with a Forbiddance effect.

Now let's say, for the sake of argument, that you've had a breach. Clever adventurers have punched their way in, disabled your door guards in record time, and are now loose on the demi-plane. How are you defending yourself? You know they're going to scry, and as often as not, superior force against them is too costly for a direct strike. These are heroes who just defeated a WinterWight, so you know they're dangerous.

What do you? Other than punch them, and punch them hard? Is offense the only defensible option, or using the hostage option? Pretend for a moment that scrying is not as important an issue. What then? Infernus is smarter than I am...how do I make him seem credible in that way?

 

[Wippit Guud]

Separate them. Forcecages and walls of force to divide the party so they can be delt with one at a time. Hold spells against the fighters, posions against the mages.

One of my favotire traps, modified slightly (taken form T&T):
Pit traps with a 40ft drop. At 20ft, the target is hit with a heightened reduce spell (castes as a 9th level spell), and the passage narrows to 2ft diameter. Fall another 20ft, lands in a 10x10 cell, which sets off a targeted dispel magic against the spell. He grows back, and now can't fit through the shaft.

 

[Eridanis]

One of the classic tactics is to divide and conquer. Since you have sharp players who won't want to split up, you'll just have to do it for them with a few well-placed imprisonment spells. Have the dragon (or one of his allies, if he's not a 17th level caster) surprise the party, cast the spell on one of them, and retreat. The spell sends them into stasis in some unpleasant part of the demiplane. Do this several times if you can get away with it.

Even getting just one or two of the PCs out of the way would weaken them and improve the odds.

(Edit: imprisonment has no save)

 

[Kugar]

1) You open the portal to elemental fire and a second portal to elemental earth wide open and flood the place with lava.

2) Most structures are really perminate walls of force with cooled magma encrusted on them.

3) You keep a Staff of Frost to encase troblesome intruders in solid stone. Hopefully they will suffocate before the rock melts again.

4) You know M.'s disjunction

5) You are immune to critical hits

6) You have a rod of cancelation/negation

7) You drop a vat of clay on the PCs and then flame them.

8) You look at what buffs have hours/level duration and incorerate them into your statblock.

9) Use Wind Wall to keep those arrows off of you.

10) Submerse the Gold in lava untill you have use of him. No TP/HEAL/LEAVE

 

[WizarDru]

1) You open the portal to elemental fire and a second portal to elemental earth wide open and flood the place with lava.

2) Most structures are really perminate walls of force with cooled magma encrusted on them.

Maybe not everywhere, but hmm....I like that for a few places. They do this in that epic adventure in Dragon, as I recall.

4) You know M.'s disjunction

Hmmm. That's a prickly pear, if ever there was one. Disjunction is one of those "I won't use it if you won't." spells. That, and I think Scorch would up and pop me, dead in the face.

6) You have a rod of cancelation/negation

I'll check on this one. Some good loot possibilities, there, if they win.

8) You look at what buffs have hours/level duration and incorerate them into your statblock.

Thank you, DM Genie! Phew.

9) Use Wind Wall to keep those arrows off of you.

I did this with Ebonclaw, Nightscale's older brother, a few adventures back. The results weren't bad...but since the Archer will almost certainly be flying, a dispel will be needed, first.

10) Submerse the Gold in lava untill you have use of him. No TP/HEAL/LEAVE

The party's biggest concern right now is how to get Gelban out and leave, so I may leave them that way...although finding a way to complicate matters beyond his chains might be good. Gelban may be immune to the lava, but they aren't.

By the way, found my old Grimtooth, believe it or not. Nasty, nasty stuff, that. Traps & Treachery will come in handy, too. Still, we'll have to meet at the mall for a burger some time!

 

[Gothmog]

Wel WizarDru, there is one thing that if I were a cabal of dragons worried about adventurers I would do- and I haven't seen it suggested yet. You said that the dragons were aware of the PCs, aware they might be a danger, but that they had lost track of them due to their fortress? Simple- have the elders set up a younger red dragon to be doing something naughty that the PCs will definitely notice. Then, have the older reds give the younger dragon an item that is magically cloaked to appear to be a potent item, but which is in fact a beacon for scrying spells. Yes, this means that the younger dragon will be sacrificed so that the elders will have recon on their enemies, but chromatics are EVIL right? It should be pretty unsettling to the party when the reds always seem one step ahead, aware of their movements, next plan etc- they should figure it out pretty quickly- but this drives home that they aren't dealing with human minds in dragon bodies, but DRAGONS- who put their own self-preservation and goals first.