B2 Return to the Keep 4e

[Samiel]

Hi all,

I'm planning a mega-dungeon for 4e based on undead using as a setting the old Keep on the Borderlands, but updating it after almost 30 years.

The old evil cleric has been discovered (in my campaign he will be a follower of Vecna, while those at the Temple of Chaos were worshipers of Tharizdum) and forced to flee around 10 years ago: he found the Cave of Unknown and unearthed an ancient complex linked to his god.

In ten years he has become a Lich and now he is preparing for revenge against the Keep: he has conquered a tribe of goblin and the dungeon is full of undead.

I plan on using Open Grave and to build a 30 (!!!) level dungeon, letting characters to go from 1 to 30 with various explorations (think diablo to get the idea).

I usually don't do dungeon delve adventures: any ideas on making it memorable? Each level will have around 10 encounters, with at least on Major Quest and one Skill Challenge. What would you use?

Thank you,
Samiel

 

[unan oranis]

Be sure to have a place to buy stuff at least once every other level.

 

[armorclass10]

Here's what I would do for a little added spice. Make an end goal for each tier. You could have lots of quests throughout but make the tier transitions have some major events.

Hell if you have the Ravenloft module throw that in somehow, maybe end of the paragon tier. If your group is into the Ravenloft module they will love it....fun stuff.

Good luck, sounds like a lot of fun.

Another thing you could cannabalize is the Rod of Seven parts or some similar multi-part artifact, spread this over the thirty levels, stuff like that.

 

[Tharian]

Another thing you could cannabalize is the Rod of Seven parts or some similar multi-part artifact, spread this over the thirty levels, stuff like that.

Note: I'm not the OP (obviously). I like this idea, but I'm wondering how one would stat out the various parts of the Rod and such. Especially with the information from the 2nd Ed box set, this could be a fun way to work the Paragon tier, but the use of the Rod has thrown me for a loop

 

[Samiel]

Levels

Hi,

these are the main levels of the Cave of Unknown:

1- goblin tribe (it is under the evil cleric's control)
2- entrance to the Ancient Temple
...
10- lair of the vampire lord (he is the trusted servant of the old lich)
...
20- lair of the lich (the evil cleric attained undeath)
...
30- the true temple of Vecna (the evil deity entered the Prime Plane)

Help me fill the other levels! I'd like to have a Skill Challenge in each level to make the dungeon a little less "hacking"

Samiel

 

[FunkBGR]

Rod of Seven Parts

I'm running Age of Worms converted to 4e, and using the boxed set Rod of Seven Parts.

What I've done is use the Concordance to indicate how far along the PC's are to establishing the entire Rod. So, stat it up as an artifact, and give it more powers the higher concordance. I drop the parts where gaining a level increases it concordance, but still have room for it breaking when it gets too low.

I'd post my write-up, but 1) I'm not done yet and 2) I have players on the forum

 

[Hussar]

Well, I ran the World's Largest Dungeon a couple of years ago, so I've got a bit of experience with massive dungeon crawls.

Here's a few things that might help:

• Make sure your monsters FIT in the room. Look at the size of your room then look at the size of the monster. This is something I've seen in more than a few modules - six minotaurs in a 20x20 room. Doesn't work.
  
• Place encounters in the hallways. Don't have encounters begin at the door. Trigger about a third of your encounters between rooms.
  
• Use three dimensions as much as possible. Don't have each level be relatively flat space - stairs, chutes, whatnot can really add to a dungeon. Also, remember those monsters that don't have to walk - climb works REALLY well in dungeons. Nothing like englobing a PC from above and beside to make his day really, really sad.
  
• Drop maps and map fragments on your players OFTEN. It gives the players so much more sense of accomplishment when they aren't just stumbling blind around, picking random corridors. Don't be afraid to make "mistakes" on the maps either.
  
• Have some sort of mechanic in place for replacing dead characters. This really helps. Trying to parachute a new PC into the party when they are on level 15 and can't extricated themselves from the dungeon for the next three sessions is a major issue. Don't be afraid to drop prisoners and whatnot all over the place.
  
• Early on, give the party a guide. Some sort of NPC that works as a source of exposition from time to time. I used an intelligent (if somewhat senile) dagger in my WLD game to great effect.
  
• Make sure there's stuff to talk to. While blatting baddies is fun and all, it can get really repetitive. Don't leave out non-combat encounters.
  
• Work with your group to come up with some time saving standard proceedures. I don't play 4e, so I don't know how important this is, but, in my 3e game, scouting followed a fairly set pattern, as did searching. Set the SOP's early and you can get them out of the way nicely. While searching a room is fun and all, after 17 levels, and several hundred rooms, even the most creative person gets a trifle jaded.

 

[frankthedm]

Make sure your monsters FIT in the room. Look at the size of your room then look at the size of the monster. This is something I've seen in more than a few modules - six minotaurs in a 20x20 room. Doesn't work.

Mainly because of mini scale creep. In 1E, the assumption was 3 man sized folks could fight side by side in the ubiquitous 10' wide corridor, many minis were quite smaller, figures did not have to be locked to a "grid" unless the DM called for it and there were less hard and fast rules about how much more area bigger critters took up on the battlemat. Nowadays folks see the 10' corridor and think only two medium or one large foe, though back in 1E or basic 3 PCs might have clashed against two trolls in a 10' corridor without issue. When updating old mods, this issue seems to be ignored. 3.0 actually did pretty good on this, since it made Large (Tall) creatures take up only a 5' square, but by this time scale creep had pushed minis up quite a bit in size and it looked artificial because of the scale creep.

The gridless 2001 Chainmail minis game used a scale I do like; 20mm = Small, 25mm=medium, [1.5"] 40mm = large. Using that scale, you just have to make oldschool maps be 1 square = 15' rather than 10', if you aren't using a grid.

• Place encounters in the hallways. Don't have encounters begin at the door. Trigger about a third of your encounters between rooms.
• Use three dimensions as much as possible. Don't have each level be relatively flat space - stairs, chutes, whatnot can really add to a dungeon. Also, remember those monsters that don't have to walk - climb works REALLY well in dungeons. Nothing like englobing a PC from above and beside to make his day really, really sad.

Indeed. The caves have good concept, but the map has some issues.

Definitely alter the terrain to match this wonderfull illo more. By doing this you can make individual lairs muuuch more spatious.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97180.jpg

 

[alleynbard]

I sympathize with your task. I am expanding Thunderspire Labyrinth into a megadungeon location that I expect to satisfy our needs until late paragon at least. Not only am I exploring the minotaur city in more depth but I am also developing other locations that predate the city.

Everything that has been mentioned so far is really good. It sounds like most of your action will be taking place in the mysterious Cave of the Unknown. You might want to take a look at B1, In Search of the Unknown, for some inspiration. I know a number of people have placed that module within the Cave of the Unknown. I am not sure how much you will get out of it, but it should be worth a quick read. If you don't already know, that module required the DM to develop all the encounters, but it did provide some unique adventuring sites that you might find helpful.

Might I also suggest having at least a few excursions to the original Caves of Chaos? Tie them back in somehow. Perhaps the PCs need to go there to uncover information on the cleric. There might even be an undiscovered artifact that will help the PCs defeat their nemesis. Whatever the case, a trip back, even if it is a short one, will do much to help bring the adventure together.

Many of the classic megadungeons had huge areas filled with empty rooms. I am not sure how you feel about empty space, but it does provide a good "down time" for your PCs and provides them with places to "hole up" if they need to take an extended rest in the dungeon.

Make sure you develop a random encounter table. At the very least, use it when the PCs are resting or traveling through empty areas. Not all random encounters have to be combat oriented. Some of them can provide color and vibrancy to your dungeon.

I would also develop a random "dressing" table as well. List a number of odd happenings, decorative elements, and other unique traits on the table and roll every so often. Some of these might be elements of a haunting (creepy moans or the sound of heavy footfalls) or they might reflect change in an area the PCs have already passed through (a chair is overturned or a door has been broken down). I am planning on using a rather complex table with many sub-tables to fulfill this need in my Thunderspire megadungeon. I can give my further thoughts on it if you would like.

Finally, leave room for expansion. That might sound odd, but do yourself a favor and give your dungeon some room to grow. You might think the delve will be quite linear but you never know when the situation might change and you wished you had a secret room, or set of rooms, on the third floor. This also helps accommodate Hussar's excellent prisoner suggestion. That prisoner/future character could be hiding/imprisioned in a secret set of chambers. Leaving space to grow costs you nothing and provides a chance to expand if you need, for whatever reason. You can even scale the encounters in the expanded area to match the PC's current levels.

I know I had some other things in mind but they might have slipped away as I typed this response. If I think of anything else, I will be back.

 

[Hussar]

Mainly because of mini scale creep. In 1E, the assumption was 3 man sized folks could fight side by side in the ubiquitous 10' wide corridor

Really? I always played it as 2. Space required for a longsword was 5 feet as I recall, so that meant 2 people in a 10 foot wide corridor. Then again, most of the time we didn't play with minis at all and didn't care less that things didn't really fit into the room.

I wouldn't want to do that with 3/4e.

But, in any case, sardine rooms of trolls is a bad thing.