B5 & Mongoose - Straczynski not pleased

[frandelgearslip]

How is this even a discussion, Mongoose went out of bounds several ways.

Mongoose owns the rights and can use them however they wish which JMS never denied. But you cannot lie and claim a person is involved when they never were. Or make false claims about outlines that don't in fact even exist. As somebody mentioned earlier the del ray books used outlines provided by JMS. Mongoose was trying to pull a fast one and pretend that they had outlines too, that there books had the same involvement of JMS as the del ray books. Scripts are not outlines.

 

[kingpaul]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was the whole 'canon' issue.

Matt responded to this on the news group thread. He said that WB said his books could be considered "canon" a couple months ago, and have now stated that they'd rather them be considered "official".

 

[jeffh]

How is this even a discussion, Mongoose went out of bounds several ways.

Mongoose owns the rights and can use them however they wish which JMS never denied. But you cannot lie and claim a person is involved when they never were. Or make false claims about outlines that don't in fact even exist. As somebody mentioned earlier the del ray books used outlines provided by JMS. Mongoose was trying to pull a fast one and pretend that they had outlines too, that there books had the same involvement of JMS as the del ray books. Scripts are not outlines.

Something that's been mentioned multiple times, by people who have heard the original podcast, even though 90% of the people responding to this thread have completely ignored it - Mongoose made no such representation. According to folks who have heard the podcast, they didn't actually say JMS was involved, they said they'd like him to be. That and an imprecise use of the word "outline", combined with some sloppy questioning, is all this is originally about.

Moreover, it was JMS who first publically commented on this, accusing Mongoose of misrepresenting his involvement, not Mongoose. Only after that - indeed, in response to it, and apparently only after trying several other ways of getting hold of him - did Matt launch the "Open plea" thread on Usenet.

But don't anyone let pesky, inconvenient things like facts get in the way of a good rant.

 

[Arnwyn]

My suspicion is that this is a case of WB's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, which was a frequent problem for the TV series both during and after production.

Which would seem to be a WB problem, not a Mongoose problem.

Assuming Mongoose is following the letter of their agreement with WB, they have no obligation, moral, ethical or otherwise, to consult with JMS. Mongoose is the creator now, or co-creator anyway, and if they want to take B5 and metaphorically fingerpaint over it, that's their perogative.

Bingo.

I’m so excited about the prospect of continuing the heroic saga of Middle Earth that I announce it at a gaming convention. “We’ve got several outlines by J.R.R. Tolkien,” I say. “We’ve also got all the notes he wrote. ...

Oh? And how did the licensee get those notes? In any case, your "analogy" is completely out of line.

I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are.

Irrelevant, if the creator truly sold the rights. Did he, or didn't he?

 

[Elf Witch]

Imagine you've always aspired to be a novelist. Imagine that you achieve some success ina related field, but it still isn't novels. Imagine that of all the different fictional universes, there is one that really speaks to you. You love the brilliance behind it, you tape all the episodes, you learn the backstory, you eventually buy the DVDs. Imagine that you consider the guy behind it to be kind of an impersonal mentor - someone who has shown you how to spin a ripping good yarn, and do it better than anyone else is who is working in a similar vein (OK, that may be stretching things a bit far, but I will say that B5 is better than Star Trek on so many levels). Then imagine that not only does your dream of becoming a novelist come true, but you're able to do so in the universe you love so much. Now imagine that the guy whose style you have partially modeled your own style after, your mentor, says that the people you're working with are jerks and your novel doesn't amount to anything in the grand scheme.

Yeah, welcome to my world.

Regardless of the bickering at the top, I'm just going to write the best damn Babylon 5 story I can, and I'll let the powers that be take care of the rest.

Good Luck and I look forward to reading your novel. I have been hoping someone would wrap up the Crusade storyline in the form of novels. I hated when a show gets canned with so much story left untold and novels seem one way to go to solve this.

 

[Ranger REG]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned was the whole 'canon' issue. One stated goal JMS claimed, years ago, was how the B5 books and extended media would be canon. Unlike the Star Trek novels, which were always disavowed by Paramount,...

Not just Paramount but us Trek fans as well. Don't get me wrong. Some are great reads (like The Final Reflection by John M. Ford) but it isn't canon, even if a piece of the novel is mentioned on film.

the books were going to be approved by JMS as canon. This proved out when elements from the Psi Corps trilogy and Technomage trilogy would also appear in the unfilmed scripts for Crusade.

If he think this approach is good for his franchise, then more power to him, and would cause less confusion among B5 fans. It still doesn't make it superior to the established franchises before this.

I'm under the impression the issue about use of the work, it's about trying to represent JMS as being involved with the project and that by virtue of that, the material is considered canon. Especially when JMS is currently working on a new B5 writing project of his own.

Well, then... Will JMS approve any novel written or printed from Mongoose? Will he do it for free? If not, how much will it cost Mongoose to have their story approved for publishing as a B5 novel?

My suspicion is that this is a case of WB's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, which was a frequent problem for the TV series both during and after production.

So, what can be done to smooth things over? Is JMS a forgiving man? Can Mongoose bring JMS to their side because outside the boundaries of legal obligation, JMS still carries weight regarding the B5 franchise (of course, not among some of us, but them doe-eyed dedicated fans).

 

[TwistedBishop]

According to folks who have heard the podcast, they didn't actually say JMS was involved, they said they'd like him to be.

It's inferred. When you say you're working from someone's outline, it sounds like they've turned in work -- not you've rummaged around online for his unfilmed scripts and notes.

Arguments over the definition of "outline" aside, it can't be denied Mongoose was attempting to deceive people. They said his direct input was "less and less" nowadays. He's never had direct input to any of their products. He wrote the introduction to the first B5 book talking about his past experiences with rpgs, and that is it.

Mongoose lied.

 

[Yellow Sign]

It's inferred. When you say you're working from someone's outline, it sounds like they've turned in work -- not you've rummaged around online for his unfilmed scripts and notes.

Didn't Warner Brothers give them those scripts to use?

 

[WizarDru]

If he think this approach is good for his franchise, then more power to him, and would cause less confusion among B5 fans. It still doesn't make it superior to the established franchises before this.

Huh? I was simply pointing out that JMS was attempting to make any license part of the canon; one reinforcing the other...which was why he would feel strongly about someone claiming something was canon when he thought it wasn't. I don't recall saying anything about B5 being better than Star Trek....especially since I don't think that it is. I own some Star Trek novels, too, you know. My personal favorites are written by Peter David, such as the one that posits that the Doomsday Machine was actually constructed to fight the Borg. My wife likes some of the Dr. Who novelizations...and lord knows the issue of canon with those things is a tricky thing. I was merely pointing out my perception of JMS motivation.

So, what can be done to smooth things over? Is JMS a forgiving man? Can Mongoose bring JMS to their side because outside the boundaries of legal obligation, JMS still carries weight regarding the B5 franchise (of course, not among some of us, but them doe-eyed dedicated fans).

No idea. Frankly, I don't care much either way. I picked up the two trilogies...but only because I was interested in the history of the PsiCorps and the Technomages (and really like the character of Galen). I've never picked up the B5 RPG and have never been really taken with Mongoose as a publisher (the quintessential series put me off of their work). So, simply put, my opinion probably shouldn't sway either of them, as I'm not likely to be a customer of either of them.

I think both parties are partly wrong and partly right. JMS is overly offended and Mongoose is perhaps a trifle too cavalier. Overall, it looks like a tempest in a teapot.

 

[jeffh]

It's inferred.

Ironically, you probably meant "implied", but actually ended up using the right word.

It is, indeed, a conclusion people are coming to after the fact, not something that's 100% clear in the original source.