B5 & Mongoose - Straczynski not pleased

Sulimo said:
I have to admit I find that unlikely in this day and age given the way megacorps feel about licensing.

As for myself, this in no way affects how I feel about the RPG or these novels. They'll be looked at on a case by case basis. Admittedly JMS' early treatment of Mongoose has something to do with this opinion. As well as JMS' extremely hit and miss record creatively lately.

I also feel a bit offended by the insinuations that your not a true fan unless your 100% behind JMS.

I agree with on the the statement about you are not a truefan unless you are 100% in JMS corner. I well remember getting slammed by other B true fans just because I said I think TNT was right the second pilot for Crusades was better and I enjoyed it more.


With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon.

But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.
 

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Elf Witch said:
With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon.

But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.

But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...
 

DaveMage said:
IIRC, the artist in question admitted wrongdoing.

I'm not sure what went on behind the scenes with Mongoose and WotC regarding the matter, though.

Yeah, but it's still baffling, how someone could simply take a city from another product (completely unlike the city in question) and Mongoose would find it acceptable. I mean, wouldn't someone (like the author or editor) notice that is doesn't even remotely look like the city it's supposed to depect. Shouldn't Mongoose have provided the map maker a rough outline of what the city should look like (along with descriptions), instead of apparently just saying "Hey, send us a map of a city"?
 

trancejeremy said:
But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...

Then they were in the wrong as well. This should have never been made public by either side and it just makes everyone involved look bad.
 

trancejeremy said:
Yeah, but it's still baffling, how someone could simply take a city from another product (completely unlike the city in question) and Mongoose would find it acceptable. I mean, wouldn't someone (like the author or editor) notice that is doesn't even remotely look like the city it's supposed to depect. Shouldn't Mongoose have provided the map maker a rough outline of what the city should look like (along with descriptions), instead of apparently just saying "Hey, send us a map of a city"?

A valid question.

Mongoose, though - especially in prior years - was certainly hit and miss on quality control for many products. I believed they have pulped a few because of it.
 

Elf Witch said:
I agree with on the the statement about you are not a truefan unless you are 100% in JMS corner. I well remember getting slammed by other B true fans just because I said I think TNT was right the second pilot for Crusades was better and I enjoyed it more.
I'm no where near a true fan, since I haven't actually seen an entire episode of B5... :)
With this issue I just have to ask why make it public to the extent that he did. If he wanted to distence himself from the project he could have released a statement to the effect that he was not involved and it did not consider it cannon.
Sorry, but from even a cursory reading, it seems to me that public questions deserve public answers. Mongoose chose a public forum and it was right to address it in public because of that.
But releasing the actual conversation between the parties strikes me as childish and that he is trying to get people to pick sides.
With everything out there, folks can make their own decisions about the matter.


For the record, from reading the stuff, it's got nothing to do with the guys rights to his work.
"He's involved less and less" vs "I was never involved" seems cut & dry to me. The difference between "outline" and "we made a plot off a line said in a script" seems obvious too.

If you want to debate what is and is not canon, fine, but the problem seems to be Mongoose representing a level of involvement that just isn't there.
 

A novel-length commentary

Hi – I haven’t posted on these boards in a long time, but given my interest in the issues being discussed here, I feel some compulsion to weigh in. This has turned into a small novel, and I hope that I don’t come across too badly (or, god forbid, pretentious). If I preach, I apologize in advance. Blame my father’s influence. And if 2200 words is too damned long and marks me as a stupid n00b, then I guess I’ll wear my noobiness proudly. Besides, you can always skip this post if you want…

For the record, I am the author mentioned by Sniffles in her previous post. Many years ago, back in the stone age, when I rode my dinosaur to and from work, I was the author of a Forgotten Realms product called “Spellbound.” In association with this book I designed a city inhabited by the Red Wizards of Thay, carefully scribing it on quadrille paper and sending the maps to TSR (a prize to anyone who remembers what that stands for, btw). The maps were published in “Spellbound,” I was paid, TSR took full and complete ownership of the maps and that was that. Since then I’ve bounced from TSR to WotC to White Wolf to Fantasy Flight, Goodman Games and others. Now I’m back freelancing with WotC.

Since then, my maps have appeared on WotC’s official website under their “Map-a-Week” section. I was tickled, and hope that lots of folks got to use them in their campaigns. I wasn’t credited or paid for this, but that was okay. Gamers got to use and enjoy them.

Recently, Mongoose published a boxed city set for their Conan d20 rpg. They presented it as an original creation. They did not credit it in any way other than to list the cartographer. Yup, it was my map. Listed as someone else’s work. I was more amused than anything else. I didn’t raise a fuss, since it looked like Mongoose had gotten scammed by a lazy artist. But it was still “my” map, and had I chosen to complain, I think I would have been justified. Mongoose and the artist apologized for the gaffe and said they’d get a revised edition out with original maps (I don’t know whether they’ve actually done this or not).

I didn't think this was a result of dishonesty on Mongoose’s part -- I just saw it as an indication of how slipshod their operation was. This is the same company, mind you, that included references to “half-orcs” in their Conan d20 rules, suggesting that they had simply cut and pasted the OGL material into the rulebook without bothering to edit or spell-check. That too has been fixed (with the "Atlantean Edition"), but as someone who spent a lot of time as a game editor and developer, I think it never should have happened in the first place.

However, if this is an indication of Mongoose's level of professionalism, I’m not the least bit surprised that JMS is upset.

Many people have stated that JMS “sold” B5 to WB, and now WB can do anything they want with it. The fact is that ownership of an intellectual property is far more complex than that. JMS did not exactly “sell” all the rights to his setting as he remains its creator and can continue to develop it as he chooses. If WB "owns" B5 then how did JMS make "Legend of the Rangers" (yes, I know it sucked, but that's beside the point) or start work on the (now-abandoned) B5 theatrical movie? Obviously, JMS retains an enormous amount of creative control over the property. WB retains certain rights to the material, merchandising and marketing, but does not “own” it.

Even if JMS has absolutely no “ownership” of the B5 franchise (and given his continued involvement in B5, that statement is demonstrably false), it still leaves open the question of morality and ethics. If JMS feels that material that he created is being used in a manner that he does not like, does he have the right to say so? Does the fact that he no longer has a legal stake in material that he created prevent him from using public forums and means of communication to state his displeasure at Mongoose's lack of professional courtesy?

Well, if you say “no” then I guess the terrorists have won. You may not agree with me, but I believe issues of ethics to be just as important as legal matters, if not more so.

Read again what JMS wrote. He said that a publisher is planning to use material that he wrote to create novels into which he has no creative input, and that said publisher – despite their avowed love and respect for him and his creation – has not so much as attempted to contact him to at least say “Oh, by the way Joe – we’re taking the scripts that you wrote and turning them into a novel. Ta.” If nothing else, I would expect Mongoose to have acted within at least minimal standards of professionalism in this case.

Since obviously JMS can still create new B5 material, then he has every right to “round off” (to use Mongoose’s term) the “Crusade” series in his own way, to tell new stories and to guide the franchise in any direction he wants. What he says goes and must be incorporated into any new material created for the B5 universe. If he were to create his own version of the material and “round off” “Crusade” in his own way, but change the notes and outlines he’s already made, where does that leave Mongoose’s version? I’ll tell you where – out in the cold along with fan fiction about Buffy’s hot three-way affair with Faith and Giles.

I think we can all agree that JMS is not the most diplomatic guy in the world. His manner seems tactless and needlessly blunt to me, but then I'm a paragon of polite discourse and reasoned discussion. However, in the end all JMS has done is say “I didn’t approve this and I don’t like what you’re doing. It’s not ‘official’ and you shouldn’t claim that it is.” He even said that Mongoose can “go right ahead” and create their own B5 material, but that he does not want to be associated with it in any way, and their material is not “canon.” Sure, he could have been more polite, and said it in a less public forum, but then he was responding to a public announcement by Mongoose, so I don’t think that posting on Usenet is really all that reprehensible.

Here’s a scenario for you. See what you think.

I’m Joe Game Company Owner. I have obtained the license to do the “official” Lord of the Rings roleplaying game (no, I'm not the owner of Decipher games; this is entirely hypothetical). I have a contract with the New Line Cinema, who controls all licensing for the motion pictures. I paid them a lot of money. I publish several roleplaying books. Unlike Mongoose, I get them right the first time I publish them, and they do not require “Atlantean Editions” in which all the errors are fixed. Everyone loves my LotR roleplaying books.

Then I get a great idea! J.R.R. Tolkien, as we know, left voluminous notes about his work. We should take those notes and publish NEW Middle Earth novels! After all, Tolkien’s estate “sold” “The Lord of the Rings” to New Line Cinema, didn’t they? I mean, hell, Tolkien’s son has written more material for the setting, and someday someone in the family might choose to write more, but after all we have a licensing agreement that allows us to do things like this. Why not use it?

I’m so excited about the prospect of continuing the heroic saga of Middle Earth that I announce it at a gaming convention. “We’ve got several outlines by J.R.R. Tolkien,” I say. “We’ve also got all the notes he wrote. We’re going to write NEW novels, and ‘round off’ the story begun in the original trilogy. Ever wonder what happened to Sam Gamgee? To Merry and Pippin? What adventures Aragorn had after becoming king? Well, that’s all in the appendices to LotR, but we’re going to expand on it and tell brand new stories. And guess what? Since we’re using J.R.R. Tolkien’s material as a starting point, it will be 100% Canon!” Though I expect thunderous applause at this point, all I can hear is crickets chirping as the assembled multitudes stare at me in abject horror.

I am distressed to learn that not everyone is happy with me. Tolkien’s estate complains bitterly. I get into an online flame war with J.R.R.’s grandson (now wouldn’t THAT be something to see?). Some people on the online forums are outraged, and think that only material produced by Tolkien himself or his own designated successors can be considered “canon.”

But I’m using his notes, I complain. Why doesn’t the estate understand? We love the professor’s works, and we want to work together to make the best damned LotR novels ever! After all, I’ve read everything Tolkien ever wrote and I’m incorporating all of it into my novels! Doesn’t that make them “canonical”? Besides, New Line Cinema now "owns" LotR! Tolkien’s estate “sold” it! They have abandoned all right to contribute, and should just “walk away.”

Who’s right here? From a purely legal standpoint, if I have a right to produce anything involving LotR and its characters that I want, including novels, I can go ahead and do it. If I want to decide that for a while Aragorn tries out the gay bdsm lifestyle, or that Sam finds another Ring of Power and becomes the new Dark Lord, I can do it. If I want to write a soft-core porn story about Eowyn and her stable boy, I can. But what I write is never, ever going to be considered a true and permanent part of the LotR setting. I'll just be another fanboy with a word processor.

Ethically and morally, however, just because I CAN do something does that mean that I SHOULD? Ethically, am I obligated to contact the Tolkien estate, explain what I’m doing, and ask for their response? After all, I profess infinite love and respect for JRRT and his stories. As creator, isn’t he or his designated successor entitled to at least a modicum of respect and professional courtesy? And if they say “Well, we appreciate your enthusiasm for our venerable predecessor’s works, old boy, but we would really prefer if you didn’t do this, dontcha know?” shouldn’t I reconsider what I’m doing and possibly just go back to working on games?

Of course that’s not what happened. Despite my avowed love for LotR and my respect for its creator, my enthusiasm got the better of me and I completely ignored the most minimally polite and considerate behavior (i.e. at least telling the creator or his family that I’m using his material and asking for their blessing). I went ahead and announced it, and it didn’t sit well. Chastened, I admit to my lack of professionalism and offer to work things out with JRR’s estate, face-to-face. Come on out. I’ll buy you a brat and we’ll knock back a couple of cool’n’frosties at TGI Friday’s!

To my chagrin, Tolkien’s heirs not only reject my offer, they then take my extended hand and chop it off at the wrist. In fact, they’re pretty rude about it. They post a response on Usenet saying that they’ll never work with me, never give their seal of approval, and if I want to go ahead and print my wretched novels, they will never, ever be considered “canon” and anything that I publish will just be more bloody “fan” fiction. I can publish them, they’ll have covers and page numbers and everything, but they’re never going to be “official” parts of the LotR universe. And oh, yes -- I smell bad, too.

Now what do I do? Should I reconsider what I’m doing, and say “Hey! Maybe I DID go a little too far. Maybe what I publish will never be accepted by the fans, never be incorporated as canon, and will – worse than that – serve only to piss off and alienate the family of J.R.R. Tolkien, whom I have repeatedly claimed to love, admire and respect. I mean, they’re being real jerks about it, but I guess despite their lack of tact, they’re really in the right, and given that they’re the stewards of the creator, I should respect their wishes.”? Or should I publish and be damned, since I’ve got a right to and Tolkien’s estate doesn’t “own” LotR anymore anyway?

Consider that if you love and respect a creative effort, you might want to extend some of that respect to its creator (even if the creator might be an insensitive brute who excoriates you on a Usenet forum). And if you still think you have the right to go ahead and do whatever you feel like doing, creator be damned, then I would like to talk to you about collaborating on “Koran: The Roleplaying Game.”

Our creations are our children. With all due respect (and please forgive any bluntness here; my goal is not to make any enemies), I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are. Come back and say that after you have created something as lasting and impressive as Babylon 5 and perhaps we can talk. But if you have, and truly understand how a creator feels, I suspect your attitude might be somewhat different.

Peace,
Anthony Pryor
 

Regarding morality and ethics of one's own creative property even if he legally sold it ... yes, JMS have greater influence among his fans as to what is or isn't proper for his franchise works. As someone who cited earlier in this thread about the late great Gene Roddenberry when he declared Star Trek V (the film in which Williams Shatner directed) apocryphal, many fans have accepted his words over Paramount, the legal owner of the franchise.

Well, I don't know the legal extent of what Mongoose and Matthew Sprange can do, but JMS could pretty much let the B5 fans know that this isn't proper and influence their buying decision. I'm not saying that his fans will follow him blindly, but his words will carry weight.

I hope that Mongoose goes beyond legal precedents and try to bridge a communication with JMS.
 

ssspaladin said:
Our creations are our children. With all due respect (and please forgive any bluntness here; my goal is not to make any enemies), I think that the people who claim that since JMS “sold” B5 to WB he therefore has no further right to address this matter are not really familiar with the creative process and do not fully grasp how very important moral and ethical ownership truly are. Come back and say that after you have created something as lasting and impressive as Babylon 5 and perhaps we can talk. But if you have, and truly understand how a creator feels, I suspect your attitude might be somewhat different.

Personally, I'd hardly consider something like 'Babylon 5' "lasting and impressive", but tastes vary. The original 'Star Trek' was lasting, maybe, but in a hundred years they'll all be answers in 'Trivial Pursuit -- 2106 Edition'.

The fact is, Mongoose's business relationship is with WB, not him. If Mongoose has violated the licensing agreement (or, more to the point if WB has assigned rights to Mongoose they shouldn't), that's what lawyers are for.

The first thing any artist should learn is how to take criticism. The second thing they should learn is that once they let their 'child' out into the world, it's no longer purely theirs. I knew a couple painters, for instance. One could not stand going to showings of his work, because it drives him nuts when people saw something entirely different in his work than he intended. The other loved talking to people as they perused the gallery, because she got a thrill out of seeing how different people interpreted the art. Both of them, though, have said that if the person who buys it takes it home and let's their kid fingerpaint over it, it's no big deal. If they didn't want to let it go, they wouldn't have sold the painting.

Assuming Mongoose is following the letter of their agreement with WB, they have no obligation, moral, ethical or otherwise, to consult with JMS. Mongoose is the creator now, or co-creator anyway, and if they want to take B5 and metaphorically fingerpaint over it, that's their perogative. It would be a courtesy, I suppose, to consult the original author, but given the tone of that post and the reputation of the person in question for being hard to get along with, courtesy might be wasted.
 
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trancejeremy said:
But it was the Mongoose guy who made it public first, in posts to the B-5 newsgroup...
I thought Matt did that because he'd been trying, unsuccessfully, to reach JMS for some time.
 

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