B5 & Mongoose - Straczynski not pleased

[WayneLigon]

WB owns B5, not JMS. Personally, I prefer it when artists retain creative rights to their stuff but that simply isn't the case here (by my understanding).

They may own it, but they didn't create it or have a hand in it's creation. It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators. I'm wholly with JMS on this; it's his baby and if there are novels or any other material at all produced without his extensive involvement and approval, then they should not be considered or listed as 'canon' (if one cares about such a thing). Anything else is just liscensed fan-fic.

 

[MojoGM]

Well, I have listened to the podcast in question and for the record Matt never said he was ever involved with the novels. The question was asked as to how much involvement JMS had as a whole with that they've done with B5, and Matt said less and less as time went on, but he would be happy to have JMS involved in any way.

Then they asked about the novels, and Matt told them what he was working on.

The podcast, while quite entertaining, suffers from some bad questioning sometimes. Out of the 3 people tossing questions as Matt, only 1 was familiar with RPGs, so one would ask a RPG question, another would ask a novel question, another would bounce back to a novel question, and someone else would ask a vague question not specifiying which one they were taking about.

I, for one, am quite happy with what Mongoose has done with B5, and from what Matt said they have big plans, all with Warner approval. JMS is just being difficult. JMS may have created it, but Warner now owns it, and they can do with it what they wish.

 

[TwistedBishop]

No, it isn't a lie. It is a misunderstanding but there isn't any subterfuge. Mongoose explained within the thread what they meant by "outline" and it is a satisfactory answer - it isn't a laid out five year script outline but they did INTEND to work from 3 scripts and copious notes from JMS provided by WB. I'd call that working from an outline myself. It may not be the technically correct scriptwriters version but it is an outline none-the-less.

This Straczynski has already addressed:

"In your reply below, you do not address your statement that you had
outlines by me. To say that you had scripts, about also which more in
a moment, and say "well, these are the outlines I was referring" is
disingenuous at best. An outline is an outline and a script is a
script. Unless one wishes to deliberately confuse the two to create
the impression of involvement."

IMO, the only thing the scripts could be used for, and honestly considered an outline, is a novelization of said scripts. That's not what Mongoose is doing. They're pillaging scripts for story hints. That's no more an outline than if I took the script to Geometry of Shadows, saw it introduced technomages, and made up my own history for them.

I don't think JMS calls the shot on what is or what is not canon for B5 - WB licensing already gave Mongoose permission to place "Canon" on their products.

I have no idea how the authorization for this kind of thing works, so it's hard to comment. But like I said earlier, as far as most fans are concerned, B5 canon means "JMS approved". That's just not happening here. Mongoose's replies have seemed to try and imply his involvement, perhaps since they understand most fans would react this way. Putting "Approved by WB Executive #46" on your book isn't going to sell a lot of copies.

He is clearly in the wrong and it seems by your account he is the one that made this public (not the first time for him). Mongoose made an error in terminology in a podcast and JMS took it public rather than actually answer an email or the phone or even calling WB and telling them to "fix it."

None of this seems "clear". Their history is a tangled one, and it doesn't sound like Mongoose tried too hard to establish a good working relationship previously. To quote JMS again:

"All that I can say is that there has been zero coordination or approvals
between Mongoose and anyone else that I know of. To date, again as
far as I know, WB hasn't been shown what they're doing, certainly I
haven't seen it, don't know what it is, nobody has signed off or approved
anything that they're doing in terms of story, content, characterization, anything.

In the long history of B5, we have never had a situation where a
licensee has decided to just go off and do their own thing without
coordinating the creative aspects through WB and myself. They're doing
this completely off on their own. No other B5 licensed company has
decided, in essence, "screw you, we don't need you," which has been my
perception of their approach from early on, when they first approached
me to try and (in my view) reluctantly get me involved...an initial
approach that was absurd, and insulting. When they came back, the
situation did not measurably improve and the attitude was one of, and
I'm admittedly characterizing it here, sod off, we don't need you, we
can go directly to the fans, who don't need you, we can do it better.
And they went on to kind of poison the well with the fans in that
regard.

And that's where it ended. They've gone off and done their thing,
without any kind of creative approval as far as I know, which I believe
is also a requirement of their contract. Be that as it may...whatever
they're doing, it has no bearing on the B5 universe insofar as I'm
concerned, which is again why I cannot endorse this on a personal or
creative basis."

On top of that he has irrefutably failed to stay on top of WB licensing current affairs and blames Mongoose for his own lack of comprehension.

Do we actually know that? Or are we going by Mongoose's word?

Can you specifiy where you think Mongoose is wrong and where JMS is right?

I think it's pretty clear that Mongoose has tried to obfuscate Straczynski's involvement to give an impression of greater canonical merit to their products.

Fans of B5 are well aware of the Del Ray novels JMS did outlines for. So now Mongoose takes a couple unfilmed scripts and web posts and calls them an outline. A slight error in terminology? Could be, maybe. But then...

Mongoose was asked, "How much input directly are you getting from JMS?" To which they replied, "These days it's getting to be less and less." When infact it had always been zero.

The end result is the feeling that Mongoose is trying to pull one over on the fans.

 

[DaveMage]

I thought Matt was gracious to invite JMS to see Mongoose's operation.

It seems to me, though, that JMS is simply put out by the way his "vision" is being sold.

IIRC, a while back Mongoose asked JMS to write an intro for one of their B5 products, but JMS refused beacuse he wanted to be compensated while Mongoose wanted him to do it for free. After JMS declined, Mongoose offered an amount, but JMS scoffed at the (what he considered small) size of the offer.

 

[MojoGM]

"In the long history of B5, we have never had a situation where a
licensee has decided to just go off and do their own thing without
coordinating the creative aspects through WB and myself. They're doing
this completely off on their own. No other B5 licensed company has
decided, in essence, "screw you, we don't need you," which has been my
perception of their approach from early on, when they first approached
me to try and (in my view) reluctantly get me involved...an initial
approach that was absurd, and insulting. When they came back, the
situation did not measurably improve and the attitude was one of, and
I'm admittedly characterizing it here, sod off, we don't need you, we
can go directly to the fans, who don't need you, we can do it better.
And they went on to kind of poison the well with the fans in that
regard.'


I think the B5 universe IS better without JMS involved, and Mongoose is doing everything right. But that is just my opinion...

 

[Umbran]

From the whole sordid post - Matthew indicates that WB gave him the scripts which THEY own. He doesn't have much of aright to gripe about that.

If Woody had gone right to the police, this would never have happened

Politeness should extend beyond the bounds of legal right. WB had the right to hand off the scripts. Mongoose had the right to work with that material, sure. But that doesn't mean the original author doesn't have any rights to gripe about how they go about it. The guy is the basis for what will hopefully be a goodly pile of money for Mongoose. Is it so wrong to expect that they be gracious about it?

I mean, really, if you're going to be using the guy's material, it makes sense to actually engage with the author. If, when they'd been given right by the WB, they should probably have said, "JMS, we've beeen given rights to XYZ by WB. We intend to use them in this way." So, whatever they say later, the guy knows their intent, and can read what the public sees as ad copy.

It even makes good business sense. The folks who are going to buy this stuff are B5 fans, who, in general, hold JMS in high esteem. If the market holds the guy as a hero, you don't want to go cheese him off. It looks bad. If he has an ego, it was in Mongoose's best interests to stroke that ego some. It looks like they did not have the foresight to do so, and now it's biting them on the behind. Go figure.

 

[shaylon]

It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators.

I agree with you. As an example, I think it sucks that the Beatles don't own some of their songs. Licensing is not about the talent and devotion that goes into the work by the creator, it's about the money to be made by the ones that fund the creator. That said it is the way it is, and although it may be unfair it is not likely to change. If JMS wants to put a stop to this he should try to do something about it, not chastise Mongoose for their miscommunication. It is clear that Mongoose went through the proper channels for this, they went through the owner, WB. It might not be in the creator's interest, but it is how the industry works.

I wish they would have consulted him; it seems mostly to be about a slight on their part, but legally they didn't have to do so.

-Shay

 

[Starman]

Well, artists are always going to be touchy about their creations. They pour their heart and sole into them. It's hard to make any judgements about this based on what we have. I don't know who's right or who's wrong, but I do hope that they can work it out amicably.

 

[Einan]

Isn't it sad when Mommy and Daddy fight in front of the children... As a fan of B5, I don't care to see the dirty laundry aired in public. I got enough on my plate without seeing the nasty back and forth between the parties involved in the dispute. Just make my RPG and write me some fiction and keep the nastiness in private where it belongs. I don't care who is right and who is wrong and who is a pain to work with. I just want to see a nice shiny final product.

Einan

 

[beepeearr]

First off I don't believe that WB snuck into into his house one night and stole his creation (B5). He chose to sell it for whatever reasons.

They may own it, but they didn't create it or have a hand in it's creation. It's a sad fact of the world that they have any say so at all in anything to do with it; such things should belong wholly and completely to their creators. I'm wholly with JMS on this; it's his baby and if there are novels or any other material at all produced without his extensive involvement and approval, then they should not be considered or listed as 'canon' (if one cares about such a thing). Anything else is just liscensed fan-fic.

They have a say because he sold it to them. He sold his baby, he loses the right to say what is and isn't cannon with it. He can say he doesn't like somthing, but he can't say it isn't cannon, only the WB can.

An outline is just that, typically it is a very rough summary of events you want to happen, information you want to convey, and the basic plot or sub plots involved in the story. An outline can come in many shapes and forms, some are formal, while some can be notes scratched on the back of a napkin.

Mongoose was given some of JMS scripts and notes and used them as an outline for the novels, this may not be their intended use, but if they are using it as an outline, than it becomes an outline.