B5 & Mongoose - Straczynski not pleased

[MojoGM]

Isn't it sad when Mommy and Daddy fight in front of the children... As a fan of B5, I don't care to see the dirty laundry aired in public. I got enough on my plate without seeing the nasty back and forth between the parties involved in the dispute. Just make my RPG and write me some fiction and keep the nastiness in private where it belongs. I don't care who is right and who is wrong and who is a pain to work with. I just want to see a nice shiny final product.
Einan

I agree 100%

 

[wingsandsword]

I do have to side with JMS over this stuff. He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe. I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.

Franky, I don't give a damn whatever WB says is canon, they may have some legal right to say it, but they don't have any artistic right to. J. Michael Straczinskis is B5 to the fans, what he says goes. Him saying that a book isn't canonical, or as he put it "licensed fan fiction" is like a kiss of death, especially since the B5 fan base which would buy such a book is quite attentive to JMS's writings.

Ever since Day 1 of Babylon 5, it's been crystal clear this is the personal creative project of J. Michael Stracinski, he's been the architect and leader, other writers might contribute but only within his parameters, and he still retains oversight. He wrote every single episode of the 3rd season himself, and the bulk of the other seasons! Nothing happens without his explicit approval, because it is a world planned out in advance, he's made it clear that he has the general direction of the entire setting for 1000 years in both directions sketched out, and far more detailed notes for 100 years in both directions, he knows what's supposed to happen and not happen in that world.

I don't know the terms of his deal with WB, but before this they haven't done any product he's disapproved of, and he's had to approve of everything. In the 13 years since B5 came out, this is the first time I know he's specifically said a product coming out is totally non-canon, otherwise B5 has been very good about making all it's licensed products canonical and consistent, very largely through the efforts of JMS to make a consistent universe.

JMS does come off as a pompous windbag at times, and maybe he is, but he's also a very good writer, who has invested a lot of his life into a project that is beloved by many fans, so I can certainly understand him being quite passionate about anything that involves it, especially somebody doing what in his eyes is violating it. I don't know the full record of communications that lead up to this point, but I'm sad that it's involved a falling out between JMS and Mongoose, because I've really liked Mongooses B5 RPG (as my shelf full of B5 RPG books will attest) and fear for the future of it with this whole incident.

I do find it vaguely reminsicent of when Gene Roddenberry before his death declared that Star Trek V was apocryphal (and he wasn't too pleased about the Starfleet conspiracy in Trek VI, believing that humans in his future would be above conspiracies), but Paramount Pictures refused to acknowledge this, of course, since Star Trek V was the most infamous stinker of the Trek movies, the fans (and even the writers of later productions) all ignored Trek V, and can pull out Roddenberry's belief it's apocryphcal to justify it.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

1) Mongoose could not have bought the rights if they were not for sale. If JMS really felt this srongly about it, he could have purchased what rights he could have to make sure he stayed in the loop. I do not know how much money the license went for, I will grant you that. But numbers I hear kicked around for licenses tend to be in the $50,000 to $75,000 range. I would be surprised if the license for B5 was over $100,000. I would be very surprised if it was over $150,000. Then again, I am just speculating. But these rights could not be purchased if they were not for sale.

2)

In your reply below, you do not address your statement that you had
outlines by me. To say that you had scripts, about also which more in
a moment, and say "well, these are the outlines I was referring" is
disingenuous at best. An outline is an outline and a script is a
script. Unless one wishes to deliberately confuse the two to create
the impression of involvement.

Except that Mongoose aren't Hollywood/TV insiders and JMS is. Heck, JMS wrote a book on the topic. It is quite possible that Mongoose was not making a distinction that JMS was making out of innocence and ignorance.

3)

So you were planning to use my scripts, without so much as informing
me, and pillage my notes online, which are incidentally my property, as
the basis for your novels.

<snip>

Meaning by adapting my scripts, without telling me. Are you aware that
when someone adapts someone else's scripts there generally has to be
some kind of arrangement made, plus something as cordial as, oh, I
don't know...telling the person who wrote those scripts that you're
DOING it?

I'm completely with Mongoose on this. Especially given the attitude here. Mongoose buys the rights. Now, before they can begin work JMS is demanding that he be consulted. And the use of the word "arrangement" puts me firmly in Mongoose's camp. What could JMS seriously mean other than money or being given over some of the writing which would also cost Mongoose money? Additionally the writing fees for RPGs are low, low, low. I doubt Mongoose could afford JMS. Frankly, at this point, if I had just bought the B5 rights, I would have gone out of my way to avoid JMS. Because after I just paid money for the legal rights, I'm apparently paying more money to JMS for a rights I already own.

4)

And I have no desire to become involved with these novels, and will not
endorse them. It ain't the money, it ain't the Deal...I am for rent,
but I am not for sale, because I have an obligation to the viewers of
this show to be consistent and to always work for the utmost quality in
our storytelling within the framework of a consistent universe.

So now, apparently, Mongoose has to pay for the rights, consult JMS, hope JMS is willing to work for free, all for some novels that he had no real desire to become involved with in the first place? Geeze. Want some plutonium to go with that uranium? This guy is nuclear!

4)

This conversation is at an end.

Sounds like it was never at a start.

 

[Dire Bare]

Politeness should extend beyond the bounds of legal right. WB had the right to hand off the scripts. Mongoose had the right to work with that material, sure. But that doesn't mean the original author doesn't have any rights to gripe about how they go about it. The guy is the basis for what will hopefully be a goodly pile of money for Mongoose. Is it so wrong to expect that they be gracious about it?

Actually, judging by the tone of the various posts and counterposts, Mongoose has been nothing BUT polite . . . it's JMS who's being a cranky, ungracious jerk. And from some backstory I've picked up here and there on the boards, it seems they have extended offers to work with JMS from time to time, only to be rebuffed rudely.

JMS has the right to not like what the WB and Mongoose have done with his creation, but to be so cranky and self-righteous when he sold the B5 story to the WB in the first place . . . sheesh . . .

 

[JoeGKushner]

Ah, nerd arguements.

And loving it when one fan speaks for all fans.

For example, as others have posted, I could give a rat's behind about JMS's opinions on what Mongoose is doing to B5 but then again, I'm not playing it.

Own seasons 1-5 and felt it was good but towards the end there, could've been much better.

Seems that sometimes JMS just needs to let go of certain things no?

 

[Ranger REG]

I do have to side with JMS over this stuff. He's the only one really qualified to say what is or isn't canon for the B5 universe. I don't know if that's legally correct, but I'd wager it's what most of the B5 fans feel.

Do most B5 roleplayers feel the exact same way as B5 non-RPG fans? Knowing this now, would they stop playing B5 RPG from Mongoose Publishing because it is not JMS-endorsed canon?

 

[Ranger REG]

I do find it vaguely reminsicent of when Gene Roddenberry before his death declared that Star Trek V was apocryphal (and he wasn't too pleased about the Starfleet conspiracy in Trek VI, believing that humans in his future would be above conspiracies), but Paramount Pictures refused to acknowledge this, of course, since Star Trek V was the most infamous stinker of the Trek movies, the fans (and even the writers of later productions) all ignored Trek V, and can pull out Roddenberry's belief it's apocryphcal to justify it.

Interesting, he declared Star Trek V apocryphal, but stopped short on declaring Star Trek VI apocryphal. If anything he could have declared Deep Space Nine apocryphal because of the introduction of covert Section 13, and more importantly run a very lengthy war story arc. Could.

Did he declared season 3 of TOS apocryphal, or at least the "Spock's Brain" episode? I didn't hear nor see any mention of declaration.

Anyhoo... For that RPG fans of B5, I hope that JMS would chill out for a while and then accept any communication from Matt. I hope that he doesn't treat RPG like any mainstream book, thinking he should get paid more while we're struggling to buy the gamebooks. I hope they find some middle ground and that would allow JMS endorse the RPG as canon.

Question is: Can JMS -- with his over-inflated ego that even I would dare not stroke -- be forgiving?

 

[trancejeremy]

Hmmmm, just reading the link, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the RPG, but Mongoose claiming one of their upcoming novels is 100% canon and is based on some JMS scripts. Two things JMS objects to. Doesn't seem that big a deal. Like with Star Wars, nothing outside the movies is 100% canon.

 

[KaosDevice]

Ego and all I am going to have to side with JMS on this one, not asking him for the ok to pilfer his stuff and then suggesting he is somehow involved is beyond rude and really in the land of the unprofessional IMO. Having been a huge B5 fan since day one I've seen JMS in action and he can be something of an atom-bomb dropper when angry. (Anyone who remembers his famous diatribes against TNT can attest to that) But at the end of the day he did give birth to that monstorous little bab 5 baby and really should be consulted when taking junior out of the crib.

 

[Ranger REG]

Ego and all I am going to have to side with JMS on this one, not asking him for the ok to pilfer his stuff and then suggesting he is somehow involved is beyond rude and really in the land of the unprofessional IMO. Having been a huge B5 fan since day one I've seen JMS in action and he can be something of an atom-bomb dropper when angry. (Anyone who remembers his famous diatribes against TNT can attest to that) But at the end of the day he did give birth to that monstorous little bab 5 baby and really should be consulted when taking junior out of the crib.

Unfortunately, his consultation fee is about as large as his ego.

Yet another strong reason why I don't like product licensing.

BTW, as impressively talented he was for the B5 franchise, I don't think I want him anything to do with Star Trek. Hate to say this, but I'd rather deal with Braga's attitude than JMS's.