BAB and Saves vs Skills? (Why these numbers?)

[mmadsen]

Umbran, thank you for your thoughtful assessment. Here are some "counter" thoughts.

If AC and Damage rose along with BAB and HP, as you rose in levels, you'd not see any change in combat. All fights would be like you were first level. If there's no difference in their rate of increase, there's no point in increasing them, really.

If AC and Damage rose along with BAB and HP, as you rose in levels, then a fight between two high-level Fighters would resemble a fight between two lower-level Fighters, but I definitely would not say that there is then "no point in increasing them".

First, I think a lot of people like the way combat plays around third level. Second, I think the game takes a lot of less direct routes to achieve this basic goal anyway. Look at how monster and spell damages escalate with level and how Fighters get multiple attacks, largely to maintain damage-vs-hp ratios. Third, I personally like the elegance of Nth-vs-Nth-level combat remaining more or less constant, all while allowing higher-level Fighters to mow down lower-level Fighters (even if those lower-level Fighters aren't one-hit-die Warriors).

AC doesn't rise with BAB, so as you rise in level, you hit more frequently. But, since damage doesn't really rise with HP, those hits do proportionately less. The end result is the image of more epic action. You hit more often, so it looks like something is going on, but you need to hit more times in order to finish the fight.

This is probably a good thing. It lengthens the fight, and allows more time to take advantage of the greater number of tactical and dramatic options available, giving high-powered fights more variability of action than low-powered ones.

I can see why we wouldn't want a system where 10th-level Fighters typically died in a single attack, but I don't agree that a system of more hits and less relative damage per hit is more epic. I think there's a golden mean around three or four hits to disable someone, so it's not an abstract game of whittling down numbers.

 

[Spatzimaus]

This is really more like a House Rules thread. You're not really asking a question, you're brainstorming a hypothetical rework of the core system. But anyway...

If you convert BAB, saves, etc to skills, you'd have to give the fighter-types more skill points to compensate, and at that point all classes are equal. There'd be one class, "Hero" (see also 4CTF), with 10 skill points that could be spent on anything.
Then there's the issue of relative value; which is better, +1 BAB, +1 Fortitude, or +1 to Climb checks? So, you'd need a sliding price scale, which is incompatible with the way skills work now. BAB would need to be split into "Melee BAB" (a STR-based skill) and "Ranged BAB" (a DEX-based skill), and you'd STILL see everyone maxxing out melee BAB all the time. Except casters, who'd ignore BAB skills to max out saves, because why waste so many skill points on a cross-class skill like melee BAB?

That leads you to something like the Class Construction Engine, which is fine for balancing new classes. Not so much for this. The 4CTF Hero class I mentioned earlier would be more appropriate; at each level, you get a Wizard BAB, d4 HD, and three poor saves, but you get 8 Hero Points that can be spent on improving stats and gaining abilities. Skill points, though, are entirely separate.

Note that other d20 games (SW, WoT, maybe CoC) use a medium save progression as well (from 1 to 9, so it must be something like 2/5+1).

I believe it's (level+3)/2.5, rounded down as usual; d20Modern uses it too. That's one of the things that always annoyed me; the Good and Poor saves are easy to calculate on the fly; the Medium save not so much.

As for the x4 skill point thing, I agree that it (and the "max HP at first level" are tired carryovers from the "everyone starts at 1st level" rule. You could easily get rid of it and do something like splitting the benefits of 1st level across the first three class levels, so that the average NPC will be level 3. Level 1 is childhood, you take an NPC class (which you can later upgrade to a PC class at the cost of 1000 XP). Level 2 is teenage years, and level 3 is the start of adulthood. So, you get three hit dice (none maximized, so only 50% higher than before) and three levels of skills (none x4, so 25% less than before). Just a thought.

 

[mmadsen]

If you convert BAB, saves, etc to skills, you'd have to give the fighter-types more skill points to compensate, and at that point all classes are equal. There'd be one class, "Hero" (see also 4CTF), with 10 skill points that could be spent on anything.

That's not necessarily true at all though; it's just one option of many.

For instance, making BAB into a skill (or Melee Combat and Ranged Combat into two Skills) -- Class for Fighters, Cross-Class for everyone else -- and giving everyone an extra Skill Point (or two) would hardly mean turning everyone into a single Hero class.

Then there's the issue of relative value; which is better, +1 BAB, +1 Fortitude, or +1 to Climb checks?

Which is better, +1 to Climb or +1 to Decipher Script?

So, you'd need a sliding price scale, which is incompatible with the way skills work now.

Currently, we sidestep the sliding price scale by manipulatiing the scope of a skill versus its estimated value. It's not just for historical reasons that Hide and Move Silently are two different skills; Stealth is valuable enough to require two Skill Points per Rank. (Sometimes mistakes are made though. We didn't need Intuit Direction as its own skill.)

BAB would need to be split into "Melee BAB" (a STR-based skill) and "Ranged BAB" (a DEX-based skill), and you'd STILL see everyone maxxing out melee BAB all the time.

Adventurers maxing out their combat skills? Unthinkable! More seriously, Class vs. Cross-Class Skills could address this.

Except casters, who'd ignore BAB skills to max out saves, because why waste so many skill points on a cross-class skill like melee BAB?

Is that a good or a bad thing? (I'm honestly asking. That's an interesting topic.)

 

[hong]

Does anyone really care?


Hong "would rather read alignment threads" Ooi

 

[mikebr99]

For instance, making BAB into a skill (or Melee Combat and Ranged Combat into two Skills) -- Class for Fighters,
<snip>
Cross-Class for everyone else -- and giving everyone an extra Skill Point (or two) Adventurers maxing out their combat skills? Unthinkable! More seriously, Class vs. Cross-Class Skills could address this.

Is that a good or a bad thing? (I'm honestly asking. That's an interesting topic.)

Nod.. very interesting.
This first thing that came to mind when reading this... was that the Fighter/Rogue, by virtue of the amount of skill points he'd be getting (& to a lesser extent the Ranger) might turn out being a better combat specialist then the straight fighter. YMMV


Mike

 

[mmadsen]

This first thing that came to mind when reading this... was that the Fighter/Rogue, by virtue of the amount of skill points he'd be getting (& to a lesser extent the Ranger) might turn out being a better combat specialist then the straight fighter.

I'm not sure how that could be. After all, a character can't put more than one Skill Point into a Skill per Level (plus the extra three at first level, or course). Or am I missing something?

This does bring up something I consider "broken" about Cross-Class Skills though: once a Skill becomes a Class Skill, it's a Class Skill for that charcter forever. So you might very well see a lot of single-level multi-classing (e.g., Ftr1/Rog9) to get BAB (or Melee Combat and Ranged Combat) on that character's Class Skill list.

 

[mikebr99]

I'm not sure how that could be. After all, a character can't put more than one Skill Point into a Skill per Level (plus the extra three at first level, or course). Or am I missing something?

This does bring up something I consider "broken" about Cross-Class Skills though: once a Skill becomes a Class Skill, it's a Class Skill for that charcter forever. So you might very well see a lot of single-level multi-classing (e.g., Ftr1/Rog9) to get BAB (or Melee Combat and Ranged Combat) on that character's Class Skill list.

I am just saying, right now, a fighter is the best at melee and ranged combat, without taking feats into acount.

If you are going to make melee and ranged combats into skills, and also probably Defense into a skill... the Fighter/Thief is just going to be able to be better in all of these, due to the higher skill points, then the straight fighter. The straight fighter would have to specialize in one or maybe 2 of the 3 combat skills...

Unless you want to divide it up even further...
A fighter type get 3 combat skill points per level, to spend on any of the 3 combat skills.

A cleric or thief gets 2...

A wiz get 1...


YMMV

 

[Macbrea]

For instance, BAB increases at a decent pace, but AC doesn't increase at all (intrinsically). Hit Points increase at a fantastic rate, but damage doesn't increase at all (again, intrinsically). What would happen if AC and Damage increased along with BAB?

Assuming that a character is given average wealth thoughout their career they will have an incredible increasing AC. A perfect example of this would be a look at the fighter.

Assuming: Str 16, Dex 14

Level 1
Chain Shirt And Large Shield --- AC: 18

Level 5
Platemail +1 and Large Shield +1 -- AC: 23

Level 10
Mithril Platemail +3 and Large Shield +3, Ring of protection +1 -- AC: 29

Level 15
Mithril Platemail +5 and Large Shield +5, Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural armor +2 -- AC: 37

Level 20
Mithril Platemail +5, Large Shield +5, Ring of protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor + 5, Sword +5 of defending -- AC: 45

As you can see. On pretty much average items for the level range AC does scale by level. Non of the items I placed onto this character are earth shattering. And in all cases the fighter would have a heck of a time hitting himself if he was fighting a like target.

 

[KarinsDad]

THe numbers work. Sure other numbers and other ways will probably work, but why re invent the wheel?

Actually, some of the numbers do not work that great.

For example, BAB.

If there were no feats /ability score modifiers in the game, then BAB as an equation would not be that bad (although still not that great) since 20th level Fighters would hit a given opponent 75% of the time when 20th level Wizards hit him 25% of the time. Instead, it becomes 95% and 5% after all of the various boosts.

BAB for a high level arcane spell caster is so much of a joke (for the type of opponents that he encounters) that you will rarely if ever see him use a weapon.

A 20th level Wizard is about as effective with his weapons as maybe an 8th level Fighter. But, he has not run into the kinds of opposition where his current weapon skill would really matter for the last 8 or 10 levels (except maybe the occasional orc horde).

Hence, the fact that he has BAB at all is basically irrelevant. If BAB was a skill to be purchased as opposed to an innately acquired ability, an arcane spell caster would probably not purchase it much past 5th level and would often purchase other skills instead. BAB for high level arcane spell casters is basically a waste of an ability.


Another area is skills themselves. Sure, a sorcerer could buy the Spot and Listen and Sense Motive skills, but typically he does not have enough skill points to do both that and increase Concentration and Spell Craft and a few other skills he might want.

But, just like the game designers assumed that arcane spell casters would acquire a certain amount of weapon skill by osmosis (a wizard can walk around carrying no weapon at all and still get better with his overall BAB as he goes up levels), all characters should acquire standard perception type abilities (like spot, listen, and sense motive), just by being in so many unusual situations.

After getting hit by Piercers in caverns 10 times, doesn't it make sense that most characters would be able to perceive that threat just a little bit better by 20th level automatically? Just because they are experienced (not because they purchased a skill)? I find it kind of ludicrous that the game system is designed such that the 20th level Cleric who has seen it all walks into a cavern, states that he is looking up at the ceiling for Piercers, the DM rolls the dice and the Cleric only has a 20% chance of success because he didn't have enough skill points to get some perception skills in addition to those he wanted for his class, but the 5th level Rogue who has never seen a Piercer has a 50% chance of success.

Just like there is innate BAB, there should be some skills that are innate. And, I think that BAB itself shouldn't be innate, but purchased instead.

 

[jmucchiello]

Aside: If you are going to make melee BAB and ranged BAB separate skilsl, you may as well break it out into individual weapon (or weapon group) skills as GURPS does. Axe skill is different than Sword skill. This only works under GURPS though because GURPS has the default skill value.