BAB as a Skill

[Dremmen]

Another issue that I keep running into is that despite everything, without some artificial cap on Weapon skills, attack bonuses are going to quickly outstrip AC. Since I don't really want to make changes to how AC is done or introduce some fudge factor that treats weapon skills differently, here are a couple of more mods to the BAB as Skills rule:

The Parry - instead of being a feat, any character can divert any amount of his weapon skill towards AC - as long as he is wielding that weapon and is proficient with it. The only caveat is weapon size. Any modifier diverted this way is modified by size - one size difference gives a -2, so it takes at least 3 points diverted to make any impact on AC, and 2 size difference bestows a -4. More than 2 sizes away and you can't parry with that weapon. So a greatsword has as much difficulty parrying a dagger as a dagger a greatsword.

The Multiple Attacks - weapon skill can be split up to a number of times equal to the PCs dex modifier. So with a dex modifier of +3, and a +7 Dagger Weapon Skill, you could do an attack at +3, an attack at +2 and another attack at +2.

 

[Tonguez]

I did something similar making BAb, Defense, Saves and Spellcasting into Skills

I used the Weapon Groups and then 'balanced' things by assigning these to class
eg Fighters get Basic + 4 groups as class skills, Rogues get Basic + 2 groups etc

I increased skill points by adding the class BAb to the skill points total and then letting players redistribute as they so chose

Skill points also needed to be applied to Defense and to Saves the result being that players can't max out everything because then at least something suffers

 

[Li Shenron]

Nothing wrong with the idea of making BAB into skills, but there are simply too many issues if you try to fit it into the same kind of skills as in the PHB:

- there are 3 BAB progressions (+1/level, +3/4levels, +1/2 levels) and only 2 skill progressions (class skills, cross-class skills): this means that clerics, rogues and everyone with +3/4 progression simply don't fit. What do you do to make them fit?

a) if you make it a class skill for rogues and clerics, they'll be better fighters than fighters
b) if you make it a cross-class skill for them, they'll be useless in combat at high levels
c) you may want to make BAB a special skill which can be half-cross-class?

- skill ranks can be 3 points more than your level. This is simply too good for BAB, so you'd have to make BAB an exception

- skills use Take10 and Take20, and Skill Focus: you'd need to be careful, or again make BAB a special skill that doesn't use them

- what is important with BAB is the number, not how many weapons you can use it with: a single weapon is enough to make a rogue or even a wizard outshine the fighter in many situations

- if you use a BAB Touch which is a class skill for wizards or clerics, touch spells will be WAY easier than now (think that touch spells ignore armor!)

 

[Dremmen]

Nothing wrong with the idea of making BAB into skills, but there are simply too many issues if you try to fit it into the same kind of skills as in the PHB:

- there are 3 BAB progressions (+1/level, +3/4levels, +1/2 levels) and only 2 skill progressions (class skills, cross-class skills): this means that clerics, rogues and everyone with +3/4 progression simply don't fit. What do you do to make them fit?

a) if you make it a class skill for rogues and clerics, they'll be better fighters than fighters
b) if you make it a cross-class skill for them, they'll be useless in combat at high levels
c) you may want to make BAB a special skill which can be half-cross-class?

All very good points Li. The plan as of right now is to normalize skill points - everyone gets the same number, regardless of class. The rogue still has his skill advantage over other classes but because of his wide range of class skills, not because of a larger pool of skill points. Meanwhile, since Weapon Proficiency determines what weapon skills are class skills, the fighter has a greater range of weapons he can get skilled easily. That's my fix right now...untested.

- skill ranks can be 3 points more than your level. This is simply too good for BAB, so you'd have to make BAB an exception

- skills use Take10 and Take20, and Skill Focus: you'd need to be careful, or again make BAB a special skill that doesn't use them

- what is important with BAB is the number, not how many weapons you can use it with: a single weapon is enough to make a rogue or even a wizard outshine the fighter in many situations

- if you use a BAB Touch which is a class skill for wizards or clerics, touch spells will be WAY easier than now (think that touch spells ignore armor!)

Your first point here is inescapable. Unless I produce a number of artificial limits to weapon skills, then first level characters using this system can have much higher BAB equivalents. The question is - how significant is that when it is also applied to NPCs and opponents? If anything, it makes the game more lethal, I think, all around. The skill points do all come out of one pool, so I would imagine the power gamer would sacrifice nearly every other skill and pump everything into one weapon. Now if I, as the DM, happen to make it so he loses that one weapon, well...shtuff happens. And then his alternatives are few.
However, I do believe that balanced gamers will make a character that will be well rounded, and the skill points sent to Weapon Skills will be moderated. Some will abuse the system, some won't.

Take 10 and 20 just don't work for weapon skills, and that just comes out of the description on the kind of tasks on which you can employ that. Skill Focus - it is too much. I see no other way around this other than banning it from Weapon Skills. Players can take Weapon Focus instead. It doesn't sit well with me but..*shrug*

And BAB Touch...I would reason out that one doesn't truly practices the "touching" skill...at least in the sense that we are referring to, or without internet access and some privacy. I would say Weapon Skills refer only to the things listed as weapons under the equipment table. This *does* include unarmed combat, which can be taken as a weapon skill. However, if they try unarmed combat attacks and don't have the right feats or class, then they are subject to penalties to the attack, attacks of opportunity, etc., per the normal rules.

Did I dissuade you any? Is it looking more viable now? I truly want to run my next campaign using these concepts, but not if they are not feasible.

 

[Raiu Kusanagi]

Li, Dremmen, you should both check out A Skill For Everything that DonTadow linked earlier in the thread.

It covers just about everything you two just discussed.

 

[DonTadow]

Li, Dremmen, you should both check out A Skill For Everything that DonTadow linked earlier in the thread.

It covers just about everything you two just discussed.

In A Skill for Everything there is no discrepency in how many points a rogue gets or a fighter gets. Secondary and Combat skills are "seperate" from your regular skills. AT every level, every race gets the same amount of these skills, no bonuses for intelligence or anything.

Each class has secondary and combat class skills. Like a rogue would have trick as a combat class skill a ranger would have ranged as a combat class skill and a fighter would have melee as a combat class skill. No combat skill is restricted, so even if you dont have one as a class skill you can still cross class with it.

 

[Fifth Element]

Hmm...I was wondering about the small spike in sales for A Skill For Everything...

What has been said about it is accurate...The +4 BAB at 1st level problem is avoided by making combat skills a seperate class of skills, with their own maximum ranks progression.

I don't think I addressed Take 10/20 or Skill Focus in the book...I would recommend against allowing their use with combat skills, obviously. It's something I'll consider for a revised edition.

 

[Dremmen]

Hmm...I was wondering about the small spike in sales for A Skill For Everything...

What has been said about it is accurate...The +4 BAB at 1st level problem is avoided by making combat skills a seperate class of skills, with their own maximum ranks progression.

I don't think I addressed Take 10/20 or Skill Focus in the book...I would recommend against allowing their use with combat skills, obviously. It's something I'll consider for a revised edition.

An Honor to have you join the discussion!

I have purchased A SKill for Everything now. ALl I need is a character sheet that can fit all these new skills... :\

 

[Fifth Element]

An Honor to have you join the discussion!

I have purchased A SKill for Everything now. ALl I need is a character sheet that can fit all these new skills...

Yes, a character sheet is something else I intend to do, if and when I get the time to do it. If I do release one, it will be a free web enhancement for the product.

I appreciate you purchasing the book, though I daresay you overstate my import.

 

[Li Shenron]

Oh well... I forgot to add a conclusion to my previous post! :\

What I wanted to imply from the fact that it is hard to "fit" BAB into skills, was that it is probably better to design BAB(s) as an entirely separate group of skill-lookalike.

Don't complicate your life by changing existing skills rules to accomodate BAB, such as for example starting to give everyone the same amount of skill points. Try to plan your house rules as much as possible so that they don't step over other rules' feet.

Kingdom of Kalamar's did the right job for Languages: they wanted languages to work more like skills (i.e. having ranks for different "proficiency levels") but instead of trying to turn each language into a skill like the PHB skills - which would have meant to accept unwanted things - they made a small ruleset for languages skill only.

If I were to design a small ruleset for skill-like BABs and proficiencies, for example I'd start with the following (note that this is completely separate from the "normal" skills):

1) choose if I want a BAB for each single weapon, or use weapon groups (and define the groups)

2) fix a limit of BAB for different classes, if I don't want for example Wizards to have the same MAX BAB as a fighter

3) estimate an appropriate number of weapons/groups that a character may be good with, and assign "BAB skill points" to each class

For me the real problem is point 2), see my previous post. I can't think of a way that is compatible with the rest of D&D, unless you simply choose to limit BAB to 3/4 for rogue-like classes and to 1/2 for wizard-like classes.