BAB to Skill based?

[irdeggman]

You know if you made your post shorter it would be quicker to reply
so I'll cover the basics




This applys to all skills,

The cost above 0 is the same, but if you don't have a skill as a class skill you first have to pay off the penalty in that skill (example non class skill in spellcraft is -10, any thing you try to do with this skill works at -10 to your roll, if you want to buy points in this skill you have first got to work of the penalty (-10 in this case) at a one to one cost, ie only 10 skill points) then you can start buy this skill above zero,

So your skill point gains per level would be in the range of 10 or more times the present rate in order to work this part alone. This is totally independent of combat skills.

Combat skill as all skills are open to everyone, (but you would still have a penalty if not related to class)

OK

Not so, remember as part of class is also HD, Saves, feats and abilities, so outside of skill the class's are still very different, if you want a Wis whos good with a sword, fine, but he will not be as good at his job compaired to another Wis who spent it on his class related skills, being very high in one skill will lead to weakness's in the rest of his character skills,

Why? What are you also going to retool all class abilities to factor into the system also.

A wizard has very few skill related things that are required to make him good at his job (i.e., spellcasting).

Also a wizard will gain more skill points in general per level than a fighter due to his primary ability being Int. Even though there will be a trade off for BAB - it still won't have that much of an effect on a wizard.

and you have the wrong idea about who many skill points each character would have,
it would need to be redone in line with the rest of this system (every class has to reabsorb their BAB in to skill points just to start with)

So classes with good BAB will have more skill points I take it?

What about the variation in skill points with classes that all have good BAB?

For example:

The following all have good BAB but different skill points.

Fighters (2 base per level)
Barbarians (4 base per level)
Rangers (6 base per level)
Paladin (2 base per level)

I am having a hard time trying to figure out where the conversion of BAB alone will account for this difference.

then balanced against their other class abilities (HD, Saves, feats etc)

thats the number crunching I have not finished (but is doable just because it is balancing numbers)

So you are looking at using a "total" build point system instead os just one for skills and BAB then?

That is an entirely different thing that what was originally proposed and can work, but will be a "huge" undertaking. I really think you are vastly underestimating the enormity of this task. It will also really not be D&D but instead be a D&D like fanatasy game. I only say this because D&D is actually the sytem not the "style" or genre. The genre is actually more accurately labeled medieval fantasy.

What!?, I wish I had that sort of free time lol

But you will in the end have to do something like this in order to determine if you have acurately captured the feel of the game (and classes) in the new system.

Okay class work pretty much the same as always, etc,
(aka an occupation/job, but not a forced character stereo type)

What is the difference between a job/occupation and a stereotype?

I think you haven't really looked at how 3.5 works when compared to 1st ed.

The "stereotypes" are that:

Fighters are the best at combat
Rogues are the best at skills
Wizards are the best at arcane spell casting
Clerics are the best at divien spell casting.

The other core classes are more in the line of specialty focuses of the "core" concepts.

Nothing in the present rules actually prevents a character from focusing on being "out of type". The can use their character level feats to progress in ways outside of their "stero type" role and spend skill points on cross class skills in order to gain proficiency in them.

you keep forgetting everything else outside of skills, that class's are made from

The game is the same, just BAB is now covered by skills,
and the skill system is more developed (with in built balance) to support this

I think you are missing a lot of things that won't really become apparent until you actually do a couple of comparison builds - like the ones I mentioned earlier.

The system is doable - just a whole lot more complex then you think it is. Well IMO anyway.

 

[librarius_arcana]

So your skill point gains per level would be in the range of 10 or more times the present rate in order to work this part alone.

Well the points would need to be balance out, based on everything else, so not going to rush on this due to crap loads of detail

This is totally independent of combat skills.

What? no!, thats the whole point BAB to skill remember?

Why? What are you also going to retool all class abilities to factor into the system also.

A wizard has very few skill related things that are required to make him good at his job (i.e., spellcasting).

No not retooling, (but will modifie to fit in the changes, ie no bab etc)

Also a wizard will gain more skill points in general per level than a fighter due to his primary ability being Int. Even though there will be a trade off for BAB - it still won't have that much of an effect on a wizard.

Thats fine

So classes with good BAB will have more skill points I take it?

What about the variation in skill points with classes that all have good BAB?

For example:

The following all have good BAB but different skill points.

Fighters (2 base per level)
Barbarians (4 base per level)
Rangers (6 base per level)
Paladin (2 base per level)

I am having a hard time trying to figure out where the conversion of BAB alone will account for this difference.

Thats because you keep forgetting everything else the class's give HD saves etc etc

So you are looking at using a "total" build point system instead os just one for skills and BAB then?

No,

That is an entirely different thing that what was originally proposed and can work, but will be a "huge" undertaking. I really think you are vastly underestimating the enormity of this task. It will also really not be D&D but instead be a D&D like fanatasy game. I only say this because D&D is actually the sytem not the "style" or genre. The genre is actually more accurately labeled medieval fantasy.

But how can you say that if you don't understand how it works, it's just a devoloped skill system, that also covers what bab did (the whole point, because it can't be with the skill system as is)

But you will in the end have to do something like this in order to determine if you have acurately captured the feel of the game (and classes) in the new system.

Yes needless to say, but at the moment the balance of skill points and area/skill need to be worked out,

What is the difference between a job/occupation and a stereotype?

Good question, do all plumbers, milkmen, look the same?, why

I think you haven't really looked at how 3.5 works when compared to 1st ed.

Been along time since first, not using that, only 3.5

The "stereotypes" are that:

Fighters are the best at combat
Rogues are the best at skills
Wizards are the best at arcane spell casting
Clerics are the best at divien spell casting.

Yeah they can be, but it would be a little 2D to be just and only that

The other core classes are more in the line of specialty focuses of the "core" concepts.

Nothing in the present rules actually prevents a character from focusing on being "out of type". The can use their character level feats to progress in ways outside of their "stero type" role and spend skill points on cross class skills in order to gain proficiency in them.

But in the system as such, it a such a very low degree to be almost cosmetic

I think you are missing a lot of things that won't really become apparent until you actually do a couple of comparison builds - like the ones I mentioned earlier.

hence not going to do anything till I see the balanced class based skill points

The system is doable - just a whole lot more complex then you think it is. Well IMO anyway.

Na, it may be a pain in the butt to balance the numbers, but once it's done, it's done, and will make the system much more richer than it is now, and not just because of the bab to skill,

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
So your skill point gains per level would be in the range of 10 or more times the present rate in order to work this part alone.



Well the points would need to be balance out, based on everything else, so not going to rush on this due to crap loads of detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
This is totally independent of combat skills.



What? no!, thats the whole point BAB to skill remember?

My point was that the 10 or more to one conversion had to be done if only because of the non-proficiency penalty you are talking about using. This was independent of any changes also needed to embrace BAB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
Also a wizard will gain more skill points in general per level than a fighter due to his primary ability being Int. Even though there will be a trade off for BAB - it still won't have that much of an effect on a wizard.



Thats fine

Won't be balanced unless you lay it all out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
So classes with good BAB will have more skill points I take it?

What about the variation in skill points with classes that all have good BAB?

For example:

The following all have good BAB but different skill points.

Fighters (2 base per level)
Barbarians (4 base per level)
Rangers (6 base per level)
Paladin (2 base per level)

I am having a hard time trying to figure out where the conversion of BAB alone will account for this difference.



Thats because you keep forgetting everything else the class's give HD saves etc etc

Not really. Which is why I had mentioned all of the class abilities need to be converted into skill points.

For example, if you do not take away any class abilities and only rely on a converesion to skill points that can be used for either skills or combat abilities (i.e., attack bonuses), the class that is known as the "best" combatant (i.e., the fighter) will no be relegated to a lesser role since the ranger and barbarian will both get more skill points per level with which to gain attack bonuses. The only thing left for fighters are the fighter bonus feats (whcih as I pointed out earlier will be diluted due to the skill emphasis).

Rangers will still get all of their abilities (spells, animal companion, etc.) and more skill points to put towards attack bonuses.

Barbarians will likewise still retain all of their class abilities (DR, rage, increased movement) and get better attack bonuses because they get more skill points per level.

Remeber that all of these classes will get the same amount of skill points due to having a giid BAB, the only difference will be their "normal" skill points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
That is an entirely different thing that what was originally proposed and can work, but will be a "huge" undertaking. I really think you are vastly underestimating the enormity of this task. It will also really not be D&D but instead be a D&D like fanatasy game. I only say this because D&D is actually the sytem not the "style" or genre. The genre is actually more accurately labeled medieval fantasy.



But how can you say that if you don't understand how it works, it's just a devoloped skill system, that also covers what bab did (the whole point, because it can't be with the skill system as is)

Simple, it is not 3.5 D&D.
It has strayed from the core rules and has evolved into something else entirely. The skill points per level will end up being something very, very large when compared to the 2 to 8 sp per level of the WotC game.

While it can still be a viable game and an enjoyable one - it is no longer D&D but rather brand new mechanic for playing a medieval fantasy game that seems a lot like D&D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
What is the difference between a job/occupation and a stereotype?




Good question, do all plumbers, milkmen, look the same?, why

Now, but all plumbers have tools and fix piping. Some specialize in industrial piping, some in residential, etc. But they all still have things in common. More things than a plumber and milkman do.

My point was the core 3.5 system already recognizes variation. It allows for and even encourages it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
I think you haven't really looked at how 3.5 works when compared to 1st ed.



Been along time since first, not using that, only 3.5

OK - but how much 3.5 have you played?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
The "stereotypes" are that:

Fighters are the best at combat
Rogues are the best at skills
Wizards are the best at arcane spell casting
Clerics are the best at divien spell casting.



Yeah they can be, but it would be a little 2D to be just and only that

You have now lost me on this one.

There are a whole lot of different ways to to be better at combat. A fighter could be a swordsman, an archer, someone who specializes in 2-handed weapons (like a great axe), someone who specializes in fighting with 2 weapons and wearing light armor. All of these are already built into the 3.5 system.

OD&D and 1st ed were very sterotypical. 2nd ed started to separate, especially at the end with the onset of the Player's Option series - but it was still fairly stereotypical. 3.x is very much not stereo typical due to the advent of feats and the development of skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
The other core classes are more in the line of specialty focuses of the "core" concepts.

Nothing in the present rules actually prevents a character from focusing on being "out of type". The can use their character level feats to progress in ways outside of their "stero type" role and spend skill points on cross class skills in order to gain proficiency in them.




But in the system as such, it a such a very low degree to be almost cosmetic

So a ranger and fighter are the same then. Well then the "cosmetic" differences can't be used to accentuate the fact that a ranger in the new system will end up being a better combatant than a fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
I think you are missing a lot of things that won't really become apparent until you actually do a couple of comparison builds - like the ones I mentioned earlier.




hence not going to do anything till I see the balanced class based skill points

This is the one thing that absolutely needs to be done. I think as you progress you find more and more things that need "tweaking" in order to remain balanced. You might end up droping the entire class sytem itself and have all class abilities have a specific slill pint value associated with them thus allowing a character to have a "set" amount of skill points per level (plus any awards given) that can be applied in any manner the playere desires. This will open the door totally to non stereotyping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
The system is doable - just a whole lot more complex then you think it is. Well IMO anyway.



Na, it may be a pain in the butt to balance the numbers, but once it's done, it's done, and will make the system much more richer than it is now, and not just because of the bab to skill,

Good luck. I think in about a month or so you will need to evaluate how the project is progressing.

Just take the things I pointed out as items to keep in mind to retain a sense of balance in the new system.