D&D General Back-Learning to 3.5e

Salmakia

Explorer
So I started playing D&D in 5e, but I've read a lot of campaign journals and heard a lot about 3.5e. I really enjoy the thought of the customizability that was possible in that edition and I'd love to learn more about the rules and possibly play a 3.5e game at some point. I have a number of the 3.5e sourcebooks downloaded as PDFs, and I've been working my way through them, but they are very dense and there's a lot that hard to figure out without playing or learning from someone who's played.

Anyone have any good summaries of how 3.5e rules were different than 5e rules?
Or even just any of your favorite customizable things from 3.5e that I might be able to homebrew and update for 5e?
 

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Jahydin

Adventurer
I think Inigo covers it well here. Certainly a bias towards the way 5E handles things, but still useful.
Copied here for ease:
  1. There are no longer epic levels. Well, sort of. Characters still have limited progression past 20th, but they’re not terribly powerful. Honestly it’s better to simply start a new character and take part in a whole new campaign.
  2. Prestige classes are a thing of the past. The once great draw of 3.5 is no longer. Instead, they’re replaced by the concepts of class archetypes and character backgrounds. While not quite as numerous, they achieve the greater goal of nuanced character customization.
  3. XP Progression is… different. 3.5 had an easily calculated formula for advancement. Not so much in 5e. The levels are split into four tiers of power, and each tier has a slightly different “advancement curve” between each of them. It takes a bit of getting used to.
  4. Advantage/Disadvantage replaces bonus stacking. Figuring out bonuses to your rolls was a terrible experience in 3.5. It has been replaced by a simply genius system: advantage and disadvantage. Wherein any advantageous scenario means you can roll with two d20’s, and take the better roll. And any disadvantageous scenario means you have to take the lesser. Scenarios can include: Dwarven poison resistance, armor proficiency (sneaking in heavy, for example), Dodging in combat, being under the effect of Faerie Fire, etc. Biggest, most awesome change to the game, IMO.
  5. Less crunch. To that end, there’s a whole lot less number crunching. The one most annoying thing about 3.5 is the tables. Ugh. 5e did away with most of that, and really pared down the system to a streamlined core.
  6. Combat no longer takes hours. The lessening of crunchiness means that end fights with the big bad no longer takes six hours. Yes, they can still be long, but not the extreme that 3.5 did.
  7. Concentration Spells. Forget what you knew about concentration. It has been somewhat simplified in 5e. Here, only certain spells are Concentration-only (Bless, Bane, Haste, Faerie Fire, etc), and suffering damage causes a concentration check. Also, only one Concentration spell can be held at any given time.
  8. Grappling. OMG so much easier. It’s now a simple Athletics check vs Athletics or Acrobatics. Boom. Done. You don’t have to worry about AC loss, Opportunity Attacks, etc.
  9. Damage past ‘zero’ doesn’t exist. Any damage that exceeds zero instead just rests at zero. In other words, there’s no negative hit points. Instead, there’s three checks to see if your character dies or stabilizes. It can get hairy as hell. The upside is that if anyone was to heal you, you can get right back up with no problems whatsoever.
  10. Feat selection. Feats have been greatly pared down, but are still incredibly useful. However, there are no classes that just “get” feats. Instead, you can opt to forego stat improvements for a feat. This sounds icky at first, and to me was hard to let go. But this change is much more elegant than it first seems. Definitely keep an open mind about this part.
  11. Heighten Spell is gone. Sort of. This is one of the best improvements in the game IMO. Many spells can simply be cast at higher levels if it allows it. For example: Cure Wounds is a 1st level Cleric spell that heals 1d8 health. For each spell level you cast it at, it adds another d8. Simple, elegant, and doesn’t need a special feat slot to do.
  12. Classes are no longer limited by alignment. Yes, yes, yes! Do you want a chaotic neutral Paladin for hire? Or a neutral evil ninja Monk? Roll ‘em up, because nothing’s stopping you from developing any character concept you desire.
  13. Multiclassing sucks. I’ll end with lucky number 13, and it’s kind of a downer. Most things are tied to your class level than your overall character level. So, for example, that Ability Improvement Slot at 4th level could be delayed if you multi prior to that. The thing is, though, multiclassing can be fun in this game, but IMO, it’s much more compelling to avoid doing so. A friend made a pretty fun and funny Grapple Bard whose progression began with Fighter, then six levels of Bard, and then plans to complete the build with Fighter. Sounds pretty awesome, except that he’ll never get to use some of the best features that either class can provide. In essence, his character will be great at levels 5–10, and somewhat average in 11–15, but suffers pretty hard in 1–4, and 16–20.
 


jgsugden

Legend
If you are interested in seeing what 3.5 was like, without playing it, Pathfinder may be close enough to scratch some of the same itch.

3.5 was a fun game, and the building of PCs in it was fun and allowed for a lot of options - but the balance was pretty weak, and there were tendencies to be able to nova monsters and end a combat before it began. I wish they'd completed 5E (epic levels (21 to 30), psionics), but I prefer the way it was built.

Regardless, I'd suggest Googling a live stream of a 3.5 game to see if you like it. I just did a quick Google search and found this one: https://www.youtube.com/@sharplynx127/videos. However, I bet there are others.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
So I started playing D&D in 5e, but I've read a lot of campaign journals and heard a lot about 3.5e. I really enjoy the thought of the customizability that was possible in that edition and I'd love to learn more about the rules and possibly play a 3.5e game at some point. I have a number of the 3.5e sourcebooks downloaded as PDFs, and I've been working my way through them, but they are very dense and there's a lot that hard to figure out without playing or learning from someone who's played.

Anyone have any good summaries of how 3.5e rules were different than 5e rules?
Or even just any of your favorite customizable things from 3.5e that I might be able to homebrew and update for 5e?
I'd suggest starting with DMG chapter2
LIST OF SIDEBARS
Why a Revision?...................................................................................................4
The Purpose of Sidebars ....................................................................................4
Equipment for Running the Game..............................................................14
Behind the Curtain: Stacking Bonuses.......................................................21
Variant: Roll Initiative Each Round.............................................................22
Variant: Sapient Mounts..................................................................................23
Variant: Striking the Cover instead of a Missed Target..........................24
Variant: Automatic Hits and Misses ............................................................25
Variant: Defense Roll........................................................................................25
Behind the Curtain: Critical Hits.................................................................26
Variant: Clobbered ............................................................................................27
Variant: Massive Damage Based on Size.....................................................27
Variant: Weapon Equivalencies .....................................................................27
Variant: Instant Kill ..........................................................................................28
Variant: Softer Critical Hits............................................................................28
Variant: Critical Misses (Fumbles) ...............................................................28
Variant: Skills with Different Abilities........................................................33
Variant: Critical Success or Failure...............................................................34
Variant: Saves with Different Abilities........................................................35
Variant: Spell Roll..............................................................................................36
Variant: Power Components...........................................................................36
Variant: Summoning Individual Monsters................................................37
Variant: Free-Form Experience .....................................................................39
Variant: Faster or Slower Experience ..........................................................40
Behind the Curtain: Experience Points......................................................41
Behind the Curtain: When a PC Falls Behind..........................................42

One Hundred Adventure Ideas.....................................................................44
Adventure Writer’s Checklist ........................................................................46
Behind the Curtain: Treasure Values ...........................................................54
Behind the Curtain: Why Dungeons?.........................................................58

Walls, Doors, and Detect Spells.......................................................................60
Behind the Curtain: Traps...............................................................................67
Variant: What Disabling a Device Means...................................................70
Variant: Upkeep ...............................................................................................130
Behind the Curtain: How Real Is Your Fantasy? ...................................136
Variant: No Sidebars for Variant Rules .....................................................171
Behind the Curtain: Why Mess around with Character Classes?....175
Behind the Curtain: A Limit to Attacks and Saves ...............................207
Behind the Curtain: Building an Epic Progression ..............................210

Variant: New Magic Items............................................................................214
Behind the Curtain: Putting Cursed Items in Your Game .................274
Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Vaules ............................282
Behind the Curtain: Special Weapons Materials...................................283
Behind the Curtain: Body Slot Affinities.................................................288

Variant: Separate Ability Loss......................................................................290
Variant: Nonmagical Psionics......................................................................297
Variant: Less Lethal Falls...............................................................................303
They will really get into understanding the nuts & bolts of RAW & RAI. In a way some of it is still very useful in 5e.
 

Voadam

Legend
Anyone have any good summaries of how 3.5e rules were different than 5e rules?
Biggies off the top of my head.

1 concentration for magic is different. Most spells do not require concentration so you can stack buffs and such. 3e concentration is a skill check you make when hit, or to cast without provoking attacks of opportunity.

2 each slot is its own specific prepared spell for most casters (prepared casters are wizards, clerics, druids), only sorcerers and bards with spells known do slots straight with flexibility like in 5e. If a wizard wants two 1st level magic missile spells they have to prepare two of their first level slots as magic missiles.

3 many spells go up by caster level. A fifth level caster's 3rd level slot fireball does 5d6. A 10th level caster's 3rd level slot fireball does 10d6. Maxing out caster level is a big deal for magic power.

4 Spell saves are based on stat bonus + spell level, so higher level spells are harder to save against.

5 No bounded accuracy, stats are not limited to 20 and numbers keep going up.

6 only three saves, fortitude, reflex, and will with bonus based on class, class level, and stat.

7 Attack bonus varies by class. Warrior types go up 1/1 with levels, others go up 3/4 or 1/2.

8 Extra attacks are based on class base attack bonus unmodified by anything else. You get an extra attack at +6, +11, +16 but each new one is at -5 worse than the one before. Maxing out base attack bonus is a big deal for weapon attacks.

9 To use extra attacks you have to do a full attack, which means you can only move 5 feet. If you move more than 5 feet you are limited to one attack.

10 Everyone gets feats at level 1 and every three levels thereafter. Feats are generally less powerful than in 5e but you get more of them. Monsters have them too.

11 death is different. No death saves, at 0 you are unconscious, at negatives you lose one hp a round and die at -10. You have to heal from where you are at negatives, not from 0.

12 No hit dice for recovering hp on a short rest, only 1/hp per day of rest, magical healing is the norm.

13 a lot more effects bump up or knock down your stats with a lot of recalculation of numbers.

14 skills are done out by points per level so you can customize the exact modifiers and you get more points each level (skills are capped by character level). You get skills from class and int bonus each level, but many classes only get two skills so if they max them out they are about half as skilled as they would be in 5e.

15 A lot of actions provoke attacks of opportunity (leaving any threatened square, casting magic in melee range, standing up from prone, others)

16 a lot of things are immune to sneak attacks.

17 In addition to AC there is touch AC which is AC based just on dodging type modifiers. This is different from reflex saves.

18 No backgrounds or inspiration.

19 Alignment has a number of mechanical impacts for interactions with specific spells, magic items, monsters, and some class stuff.

20 Some classes have built in roleplay stuff like the paladin code and losing powers for violating their code, this is generally more constraining RAW than 5e.

21 Attunement for magic items is not a thing, some magic items take up specific body type slots though (only one set of gloves, one belt, one headband, one cloak, one magic ring per hand, etc.), and the baseline math includes assuming advancingly more powerful items of certain types (mostly attack and defense and stat buffing) as you level.
 
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Salmakia

Explorer
Biggies off the top of my head.

1 concentration for magic is different. Most spells do not require concentration so you can stack buffs and such. 3e concentration is a skill check you make when hit, or to cast without provoking attacks of opportunity.

2 each slot is its own specific prepared spell for most casters (prepared casters are wizards, clerics, druids), only sorcerers and bards with spells known do slots straight with flexibility like in 5e. If a cleric wants to 1st level cure light wounds spells they have to prepare two of their first level slots as cure light wounds.

3 many spells go up by caster level. A fifth level caster's 3rd level slot fireball does 5d6. A 10th level caster's 3rd level slot fireball does 10d6. Maxing out caster level is a big deal for magic power.

4 Spell saves are based on stat bonus + spell level, so higher level spells are harder to save against.

5 No bounded accuracy, stats are not limited to 20 and numbers keep going up.

6 only three saves, fortitude, reflex, and will with bonus based on class, class level, and stat.

7 Attack bonus varies by class. Warrior types go up 1/1 with levels, others go up 3/4 or 1/2.

8 Extra attacks are based on class base attack bonus unmodified by anything else. You get an extra attack at +6, +11, +15 but each new one is at -5 worse than the one before. Maxing out base attack bonus is a big deal for weapon attacks.

9 To use extra attacks you have to do a full attack, which means you can only move 5 feet. If you move more than 5 feet you are limited to one attack.

10 Everyone gets feats at level 1 and every three levels thereafter. Feats are generally less powerful than in 5e but you get more of them.

11 death is different. No death saves, at 0 you are unconscious, at negatives you lose one hp a round and die at -10. You have to heal from where you are at negatives, not from 0.

12 No hit dice for recovering hp on a short rest, only 1/hp per day of rest, magical healing is the norm.

13 a lot more effects bump up or knock down your stats with a lot of recalculation of numbers.

14 skills are done out by points per level so you can customize the exact modifiers and you get more points each level (skills are capped by character level). You get skills from class and int bonus each level, but many classes only get two skills so if they max them out they are about half as skilled as they would be in 5e.

15 A lot of actions provoke attacks of opportunity (leaving any threatened square, casting magic in melee range, standing up from prone, others)

16 a lot of things are immune to sneak attacks.

17 In addition to AC there is touch AC which is AC based just on dodging type modifiers. This is different from reflex saves.

18 No backgrounds or inspiration.

19 Alignment has a number of mechanical impacts for interactions with specific spells, magic items, monsters, and some class stuff.

20 Some classes have built in roleplay stuff like the paladin code and losing powers for violating their code, this is generally more constraining RAW than 5e.

21 Attunement for magic items is not a thing, some magic items take up specific body type slots though (only one set of gloves, one belt, one headband, one cloak, one magic ring per hand, etc.), and the baseline math includes assuming advancingly more powerful items of certain types (mostly attack and defense and stat buffing) as you level.
This is a great list - thank you!
 

haakon1

Adventurer
18 No backgrounds or inspiration.
Good summary, but on this one, it’s not that your character shouldn’t HAVE a background. It’s just not something you pick from a book, but develop for yourself, possibly putting some Skill Points into it.

E.g., a player recently created a character who was a bowmaker (with Skill Points in Craft: Bowyer/Fletcher) who was drafted and deserted. Role playing stuff that’s up to the player.

FYI, I have DMing 3.5e since 2003 when it came out. There are several people running 3.5e in the D&D Older Editions area.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I prefer 3e to 5e but 3e will require more house rules than 5e for most players (that aren't trying to emulate a prior edition).

Things will generally work pretty well if you stick to the core books up to 6th-8th level, but after that you'll increasingly run into difficult balance challenges.
 

haakon1

Adventurer
I prefer 3e to 5e but 3e will require more house rules than 5e for most players (that aren't trying to emulate a prior edition).

Things will generally work pretty well if you stick to the core books up to 6th-8th level, but after that you'll increasingly run into difficult balance challenges.
Agree. I run Core Rules only by default, with players requesting specific rules from other sources if they want.
 

Weiley31

Legend
I would probably suggest to house rule that instead of using 3.5's normal skill list/skill rules, you just improvise/import over the rules for skills/cross class skills from pathfinder 1st edition.

I find going that route makes skills LESS ANNOYING in 3.5 and ensures your character won't be useless at tying their shoes......or rolling over....or even trying to do anything productive really outside of Yugi-oh style multiclassing combo names.

The Fighter is a bit more....useless compared to the Fighter in 5E. So, replacing it with the Warblade from Tome of Battle would be better. Or heck, go whole hog and replace it with the Pathfinder 1st edition Fighter. Probably do the same thing with the Monk as well.
 
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Voadam

Legend
A few additions

22 There are more skills, 5e perception is 3e spot and listen skills. 5e stealth is 3e hide in shadows skill and 3e move silent skill. 3e has a language skill so you can learn languages each level. Some are named differently like 5e persuasion being 3.5 diplomacy. There are specific craft and profession skills that would generally be proficiencies or backgrounds in 5e.

23 class imbalance is a bit wider. Rogues, monks, bards, fighters, rangers, and paladins are all a bit more behind the curve compared to 5e, particularly at higher levels. Resource management models and powers can vary widely between classes.

24 There are a lot of options and supplements beyond core, both WotC and a ton of OGL. Quality and tone varies significantly. Psionics, PH 2, Tome of Blades, Warlock and Hexblade. A large number of fantastic monster books, modules, and campaign settings on the DM side.

25 Warlocks and Dragonborn and Drow are not core PH options.

26 Skills have more defined uses with specified DCs for a lot of things that are vague and up to the DM in 5e.

27 Gold is a lot more important and integrated as part of player power. Magic items have specific prices and can be crafted and often bought.

28 Spellcasters can use feats to be able to craft magic items for half their normal price using gold and xp. This can put them a level behind the rest of the party at points but also give a lot of extra power they control.

29 Monsters have full stats like PCs and can have full PC class levels. This can make them fairly complex with a lot of moving parts that are not always obvious on first glance or in use at the table, particularly with feats and spells and monster spell like abilities if you are not instantly familiar with them.

30 Grapple is fairly complex, and can be a much more powerful maneuver for shutting down an opponent in 3e compared to 5e. It is easier to build specialized characters and monsters around special maneuvers like grappling, disarming, tripping, and such.
 

Salmakia

Explorer
I would probably suggest to house rule that instead of using 3.5's normal skill list/skill rules, you just improvise/import over the rules for skills/cross class skills from pathfinder 1st edition.

I find going that route makes skills LESS ANNOYING in 3.5 and ensures your character won't be useless at tying their shoes......or rolling over....or even trying to do anything productive really outside of Yugi-oh style multiclassing combo names.
That's a good point. I am definitely interested in the "more specific skills" aspect of 3.5e/Pathfinder. I feel like they tried to add some of that into 5e with the various tool/kit proficiencies in Xanathar's but it doesn't have quite the same integration & I've rarely seen anyone actually use them. I'd love to have a character that can really specialize in extraplanar knowledge or forgery or whatever. But yeah still would love the characters to be useful/interesting to play outside of their specialties.
 

Just a few hints:

Don't fall into the trap of ever raising AC and Skill DCs.
The skill DCs that work in 5e also work in 3.5. Cross class skills should be the benchmark for DCs.
You should make use of take 10 and most importantly take 20 rules whenever possible.
A rogue opening a lock with DC 25? No problem, as long as they are not under time pressure. Searching a room? Take 20! This also makes sure that it takes a realistic anount of time.

AC should usually be a tiny bit higher.
The wizard BAB bonus should be your benchmark (at most). The fighter should have an easy time hitting with his first attack and even his second.
I think this idea is easier to accept going back from 5e than going up from 2e, where any hit on you was potentially deadly.
 


I'm confused - I don't think I have enough 3.5 knowledge to understand what you mean by this.

Skill DCs work as in 5e. Easy = 10, medium = 15 and so on.

You can put level+3 skill points into a skill. If it is on your list, this + stat bonus + d20 is your total.
If it is cross class, you only have d20 + stat + half the anount of points you put in.
Back then, it was normal for DMs to lool at class skills deciding what DC is appropriate, when they should have looked at cross class skills.

This made everything that is not helped by magic prone to failure and made non magical characters comparably bad.

Or put it in 5e terms: just treat class skills as you would treat skills woth expertise and cross class skills as just normal proficiency.

This way, it is way more fun for the rogue and the fighter.
 

Voadam

Legend
I'm confused - I don't think I have enough 3.5 knowledge to understand what you mean by this.
3e Classes have skills on their class skill lists that can be taken 1/1 with levels. Skills not on the list cost one skill point for every half skill rank and cap at half the level of the cap for class skills.

A DM assigning a skill DC has flexibility in a number of situations despite the more in-depth guidelines of 3e compared to 5e. Some look at the expected max rank for a character of the appropriate archetypal type so a rogue detecting a trap when setting such a DC. Others suggest setting DCs so that most everybody has some sort of a reasonable shot even if they are not a skill expert in the area.

Skill DCs can easily range from 5 to 30 with characters' skill check bonuses at 20th level easily ranging from -3 to +30. Where you discretionally set DCs impacts both experts and non-experts.
 

3e Classes have skills on their class skill lists that can be taken 1/1 with levels. Skills not on the list cost one skill point for every half skill rank and cap at half the level of the cap for class skills.

A DM assigning a skill DC has flexibility in a number of situations despite the more in-depth guidelines of 3e compared to 5e. Some look at the expected max rank for a character of the appropriate archetypal type so a rogue detecting a trap when setting such a DC. Others suggest setting DCs so that most everybody has some sort of a reasonable shot even if they are not a skill expert in the area.

Skill DCs can easily range from 5 to 30 with characters' skill check bonuses at 20th level easily ranging from -3 to +30. Where you discretionally set DCs impacts both experts and non-experts.

Thanks. I hope you explained it better than I did.

Skill DCs between 10 and 25 usually work well for levels 1 to 15. At level 1, at level 1, usual DCs are 15, while at epic tier (level 10 to 15), usual DCs around 20 work well.

This way, skill based characters feel useful at all stages of the game.

If you set DCs too high, you quench creativity too much, because non magical characters soon feel that risk vs reward is heavily skewed against them.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Pathfinder 1e is a really good improvement on 3.5. It simplifies some issues with skills and cross-class skills, improves a number of classes. Plus, all of its rule additions are available for free at d20PFSRD.

But if you prefer PDFs, Paizo has all of the rulebooks for sale. They‘re quite convenient if you run from a tablet or laptop.
 

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