Back to the Dungeon

[delericho]

I won't hammer you for it, but I'll disagree to an extent.

2E probably moved farther away from the dungeon than it needed to. 3E, IMO (and that of most people I game with) went too far the other way.

In terms of "dungeon focus," I'd like to see something roughly midway between them.

Agreed. "Back to the Dungeon" was cool for a while back at the start of 3e, but I think the game has been placed too far in that direction for too long. I, for one, am ready for a change.

 

[Klaus]

Dungeons & Dragons is so much easier to work with than Various Challenging Environments & Dragons.

I think the initial focus of the core books will be Dungeons and adventuring in them and getting to them - but that will quickly expand to include other environments for adventure in future releases.

Awesome! I wanna play Various Challenging Environments & Diverse Mythological Creatures, aka VCE&DMC!

 

[Dykstrav]

I dig dungeons. Alot.

Especially with new groups that you don't know well, delving into a creepy place packed with monsters and treasure is alot more fun than a complex intrigue plot (at first). Dungeons are straightforward, but not necessarily simple. I enjoy the exploration aspect of the game, and will happily spend many an hour exploring every nook and cranny of a dungeon site. Although you can run entire campaigns within dungeons, you don't have to.

Besides, being in a party of adventurers that braved the Forgotten Mountain or the Black Tower of Doom has a certain panache that says "fantasy." Weird locations packed with dangers and treasures are a staple of the genre, and for good reason- a well-designed dungeon can be alot of fun.

 

[Korgoth]

The dungeon or "underworld" should absolutely be the focus of the game (though not necessarily the absolute focus). It is, even moreso than dragons, the signal thematic essence of D&D.

The wilderness is simply the "not-urban". The underworld is the "anti-urban".

 

[rounser]

With 4E, there's a marvellous opportunity for Wizards to turn cities and wilderness into as easily runnable an adventuring environment as dungeons. I don't know how they'd do it, but that's the designer's job.

If anything, 3E proved how boring purely dungeon based campaigns can be with it's adventure paths, RttToEE etc. IMO. It's time to reclaim the overworld - CRPGs have had a good go at it, D&D could conceivably be state of the art in this respect (although I'd be surprised if other priorities didn't totally overwhelm this one).

 

[Reynard]

This is going to sound insipid, but dungeons are great when they are good. Good dungeon design is difficult. Dungeons should be there to be explored and there should be plenty of informed choices made. A cthedral with a cellar that leads to a crypt where the mummy lives ins't a dungeon -- it is a linear set of encounters the PCs are forced to go through, in sequence, if they are to succeed. A good dungeon has discreet areas, multiple entrances and exits, "unimportant" levels, empty rooms, interesting puzzles. Moreover, a good dungeon requires the players to think strategically about resources -- everything from time to rations to hit point to spells -- and force them to make aformentioned informed decisions.

Too many dungeons end up being strings of encounters that serve no purpose aside from burning time until the final encounter. If that's what you're going to do, you might as well just spend 30 seconds telling the players what they fought through to get to the Big Bad and then run that fight. The dungeon should rather be the adventure -- with a good dungeon, you don't even need a Big bad or even a "story" or plot. One of the things I love about 1E is that characters were assumed to be adventuring because they were adventurers. There didn't need to be a threat to cosmic security for them to take up sword and spell and explore labrynthine underground dwellings -- just the promie of great risk and reward.

 

[Korgoth]

This is going to sound insipid, but dungeons are great when they are good. Good dungeon design is difficult. Dungeons should be there to be explored and there should be plenty of informed choices made. A cthedral with a cellar that leads to a crypt where the mummy lives ins't a dungeon -- it is a linear set of encounters the PCs are forced to go through, in sequence, if they are to succeed. A good dungeon has discreet areas, multiple entrances and exits, "unimportant" levels, empty rooms, interesting puzzles. Moreover, a good dungeon requires the players to think strategically about resources -- everything from time to rations to hit point to spells -- and force them to make aformentioned informed decisions.

Too many dungeons end up being strings of encounters that serve no purpose aside from burning time until the final encounter. If that's what you're going to do, you might as well just spend 30 seconds telling the players what they fought through to get to the Big Bad and then run that fight. The dungeon should rather be the adventure -- with a good dungeon, you don't even need a Big bad or even a "story" or plot. One of the things I love about 1E is that characters were assumed to be adventuring because they were adventurers. There didn't need to be a threat to cosmic security for them to take up sword and spell and explore labrynthine underground dwellings -- just the promie of great risk and reward.

QFT. It's funny how lots of people complain (rightly) about railroading, but don't complain about linear dungeons. The underworld doesn't have to be a maze (it can be, but that's a separate topic), but it should probably not be a straight line. That strips it of much of its otherworldlyness.

 

[blargney the second]

There's a Design & Development article on dungeon design philosophy in 4e.

 

[Hammerhead]

Well, if I'm playing a character with an actual Good alignment, I need a reason to go into a dungeon and kill stuff other than "there's money there."

 

[Reynard]

Well, if I'm playing a character with an actual Good alignment, I need a reason to go into a dungeon and kill stuff other than "there's money there."

That's true. of course, the reason might be, "There's all sorts of unspeakable nasties down there that threaten the people that live up here." If being "Good" prohibits adventuring for adventuring sake, it doesn't matter if it is a dungeon, a stretch of wilderness or an urban metropolis: you and your DM are going to have to work up an appropriate motivator.