Badass PCs, weak monsters?

[S'mon]

Reading the KotS-TPK thread, I think if I run 4e I'm going to have to make up much weaker stats for most monsters. Not much point being super badass when *kobolds* are even more badass! I get the impression that 4e should allow for this, for 1st level PCs to be powerful heroes wading through hordes of foes, which is great. But it sounds like I'll have to put a lot of work in if I want eg weak gnolls. I'm hoping I can start with 3e stats for most monsters in published scenarios, and those will give suitably weak opposition. Then I can run 3e scenarios written for ca 4th-6th level PCs, right out the gate.

To those with the 4e MM, does this sound practical?

 

[Asmor]

You may wanna ask this in the rules forum, or have a friendly mod move it over there.

The KotS TPKs almost all take place in a single encounter which is extremely difficult. It's not a fair judge of overall difficulty.

In general, it seems to me that a typical level 1 kobold does slightly less damage than a PC, has significantly fewer options (though it does have some), and about the same or even a tiny bit more HP. Of course, they also don't have healing surges or action points. So I think that PCs are still going to be able to kick some kobold ass, they just can't take them in especially large numbers.

 

[Nifft]

The KotS TPKs almost all take place in a single encounter which is extremely difficult. It's not a fair judge of overall difficulty.

Yeah, this is my take as well. And it is truly a tough encounter -- we PWNZORD the earlier 2 kobold ambushes without risk of immanent death, though they did make us sweat a bit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

without risk of immanent death,

This makes a creepy kind of sense.

 

[hong]

Also, if you want really weak kobolds, you could have lots of encounters with minions.

 

[Nifft]

This makes a creepy kind of sense.

Bah, I should have seen that.

*grumble-mumble*, -- N

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Also, if you want really weak kobolds, you could have lots of encounters with minions.

I'd second this - more minions, less of the other sorts of kobolds should be reasonably balanced and give the feel of epic hordes of monsters that I know you like.

I think once the PC's have levelled up a little it'll become even easier - 1st level PC's are by no means world-beaters, but the rise in power doesn't seem to be as marked as it was in 3e.

 

[S'mon]

OK, my question (and mods feel free to move this thread) is whether I can take some 3e stats, where a gnoll has 12 hit points AC 15 ATT+3 and d8+2 damage (say), use it in 4e, and have 1st level PCs mop the floor with a bunch of them (but still notice they've been in a fight)? Are the systems sufficiently compatible, and would that be the result? Essentially, 1st level PCs would be "1st season Xena", rising in power to "late season Xena" later on.

Edit: Thing about minions as I understand it is that they hit hard & have good AC, combined with 1 hit point. I was thinking more like the Xena ep where she holds off the Persian army (weak mooks), only having slight trouble with 1 uber-Persian (who'd be created per regular NPC rules).

To be specific, I'm thinking of running the Necromancer Games' module Caverns of Thracia in 4e. It has Dragonborn analogues and I can easily use Tieflings etc in it, but it's designed for a strong party of 3rd-8th 3e PCs, and even then many encounters are overwhelming. My hope is I'd be able to run it for 1st level 4e PCs who were already mighty heroes within the setting; ie almost all NPCs are far weaker.

Edit 2: As far as kobolds go, I'm not a fan. Not very heroic wailing on a 25 lb, 2'8" critter smaller than my own 1 year old son Bill.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

OK, my question (and mods feel free to move this thread) is whether I can take some 3e stats, where a gnoll has 12 hit points AC 15 ATT+3 and d8+2 damage (say), use it in 4e, and have 1st level PCs mop the floor with a bunch of them (but still notice they've been in a fight)? Are the systems sufficiently compatible, and would that be the result? Essentially, 1st level PCs would be "1st season Xena", rising in power to "late season Xena" later on.

Edit: Thing about minions as I understand it is that they hit hard & have good AC, combined with 1 hit point. I was thinking more like the Xena ep where she holds off the Persian army (weak mooks), only having slight trouble with 1 uber-Persian (who'd be created per regular NPC rules).

To be specific, I'm thinking of running the Necromancer Games' module Caverns of Thracia in 4e. It has Dragonborn analogues and I can easily use Tieflings etc in it, but it's designed for a strong party of 3rd-8th 3e PCs, and even then many encounters are overwhelming. My hope is I'd be able to run it for 1st level 4e PCs who were already mighty heroes within the setting; ie almost all NPCs are far weaker.

Edit 2: As far as kobolds go, I'm not a fan. Not very heroic wailing on a 25 lb, 2'8" critter smaller than my own 1 year old son Bill.

There is no "generic" answer. It might work, it might not. Basically, both systems still have similar attack and damage expressions. But 3E damage and attacks probably scale faster then in 4E.

One attempt you could make is to compare the 3E values to the values predicted by 4E monster design guidelines, so you can guesstimate the equivalent 4E level.

For your concrete example: 12 HP, AC 15, +3 attack, 1d8+2 damage. Yes, that could probably work at first level.

 

[S'mon]

Thanks Mustrum, that's helpful.