[BADD] A clinic for DMing Dragons- long

[Gargoyle]

Note that this is a B.A.D.D. post (Bothered About Disposable Dragons, started by Wolfspider - good idea!). I'm declaring myself a member. Sorry for the length, but I find dragons fascinating and tend to ramble.

Instead of merely complaining about dragons being too easily killed, I'd like to discuss why this is so, and how to make them a challenge without making them unstoppable. I'd like this thread to be a clinic for suggestions to DMs for playing dragons well.

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First of all, I'd like to say that not all dragons need to be played like omniscient, omnipotent godlings that can easily kill an entire party. My campaigns are centered around the player characters, not NPC dragons. (I prefer to think of them as NPCs rather than mere monsters)

Also, I don't think DMs need to resort to "cheesy" tactics for dragons to win. For instance, setting a few simple traps in its lair is logical. Setting a host of elaborate traps that would take a high level rogue or wizard (or both) is illogical, unless the dragon happens to be a high level rogue or wizard, or is allied with one. (in which case the CR needs to reflect that)

Finally, I do think that since all dragons are haughty, they will make mistakes from time to time regardless of Intelligence, like entering melee with a high level fighter or ignoring a rogue that is trying to flank him. After underestimating the party one time, the dragon is likely to stop doing so. For example, that first sneak attack or full attack action with a sword +5 will wake him up to the danger he's in. My point is that just because a dragon makes a mistake, doesn't mean the DM screwed up.
</disclaimers>

Despite all the above, I agree that dragons are usually underplayed, and that it is mostly the DM's fault. However, I don't think it is ever the intention of a DM to play dragons poorly; I think it is because they are simply hard to play:

- Dragons are difficult to run. Look at the length of the monster manual entry and the number of abilities. Players who roll up 20th level characters for a high level one-shot have similar difficulties; they aren't as familiar with all their capabilities compared to how they would be with a character they had advanced from 1 to 20th level. A perfect example is a dragon's senses. Invisible creatures can often be detected by smell, something that a DM often forgets.

- Often dragons are very Intelligent, and are supposed to be smarter than the DM is in real life. Playing a creature that is smarter than you (and has hundreds or thousands of years of experience) is hard, and often requires a lot of pre-planning.

- The environment can greatly affect the outcome of any battle, but even more so when dragons are involved, due to their number of abilities. Most DMs realize that dragons will prefer to fight from the air. Some don't think about the green dragon's ability to breathe water, or a blue dragon's ability to imitate sounds, and how those abilities can be more effective in an appropriate environment, for instance in a lake or a in an echoing cave, respectively.

- Spellcasters are always more difficult to run, and many dragons cast spells.

- DMs that don't use miniatures or battlemats are at a disadvantage when running tactical combats with dragons, particularly because of reach.

- Knowing that a horde of treasure awaits them, player characters will usually "unload" on a dragon. They often hold back their resources during other encounters, especially powerful charged items and potions, then use everything possible when confronted with a dragon. You see the same effect when they face a life-draining undead creature, though it's more out of fear than greed.

- Most DM's don't run dragons very often. This is admirable, because it makes such encounters rare and special, but the result is that they usually aren't very experienced with dragons.

This last point is the most important. If you only run one or two dragon encounters in the course of a campaign (or even a dozen in the course of a long-running campaign), how can you expect to do a good job, given the difficulty? I've been guilty of forgetting important things like a dragon's DR or frightful presence in the heat of combat, mistakes that certainly hurt the dragon.

My feeling is that if you want to run a dragon well, you should practice playing them first. Run a few practice combats for fun, preferably with a different group than your players or by yourself. (No sir, I didn't see you playing with your dolls again.)

What do you suggest for DM's aspiring to run a climatic battle with a dragon?

 

[Wolfspider]

Excellent, Gargoyle! This is exactly the kind of discussion I had in mind when I started B.A.D.D.

Although I don't have time to contribute very much to this discussion right now (I have to go to a workshop right now), I will just say that I agree with everything you said in your post. As far as DMs not being used to running dragons very much, perhaps we can set up a workshop of sorts (since I have workshops on my mind), perhaps online in a chat game or something similar, where DMs can actually run a group of fellow B.A.D.D. members through their planned dragon encounter and get input on what needs to be changed.

What do you think?

 

[Carnifex]

Here are some of my Evil Tactics (tm) for dragon usage.

1) Spells. Never forget 'em, and choose them well. IMO, since a dragon has hefty enough offensive capabilities anyway, most will spend their sorceror knowledge slots on defensive spells, with probably the occasional divination thrown in. Stoneskin is a good one, along with minor globe of invulnerability to keep those pesky magic missiles off their back. Further, even lowly mage armour is good, since its +4 AC stacks with their natural armour.

Also Haste, spell of choice for adventurers and monsters everywhere There are some particularly evil tactics that can be employed with this spell, but generally it turns the dragon into even more of a combat monster and increases their survivability (AC bonus and can run away faster!).

The Bulls Strength/ Cats Grace/ Endurance spells are also good for pumping him up, since most dragons don't use stat-enhancing magic items.

Invisibility and Improved Invisibility are also winners, along with illusion spells etc to create fake walls for the dragon to hide behind etc.

2) On that note, magic item creation feats for spellcasting dragons. That way, rather than having a horde of very nice and glittery magic items that are useless to the dragon and don't get used in combat (and if there are *any* he can use already, he should be using them, rather than letting them lie unused amidst the piles of gold). Magic item feats let them tool themselves up nicely.

3) A tactic used by the red dragon Fosforus in my PS campaign. He clung to the ceiling under an invisibility spell then dropped down to bodyslam the party rogue scouting ahead. Then he retreated into the next cavern, hiding behind an illusionary wall so when the party came through they didn't see him. Cue breath weapon attack.

4) Haste drag'n'drop. Two hasted blue dragons pulled this one off, as a 20th level fighter with an orb of dragonkind (blue) sat back and peppered the party with crossbow bolts. The dragons (heftily defended under abjuration spells as well) were using full-round attacks to grab the PC's, then flying up with their haste actions. As a free action, they can then drop the PC's, who take damage from falling - quite a long way, significantly racking up the amount of damage the PC's were taking. The party can foil this by using potions of fly etc or fly spells, but if the dragon has dispel he can hit them with it, bringing them down to earth again where he can continue to hit and run.

Hope that helps

 

[Gargoyle]

Excellent, Gargoyle! This is exactly the kind of discussion I had in mind when I started B.A.D.D.

Although I don't have time to contribute very much to this discussion right now (I have to go to a workshop right now), I will just say that I agree with everything you said in your post. As far as DMs not being used to running dragons very much, perhaps we can set up a workshop of sorts (since I have workshops on my mind), perhaps online in a chat game or something similar, where DMs can actually run a group of fellow B.A.D.D. members through their planned dragon encounter and get input on what needs to be changed.

What do you think?

I think it's an excellent idea. It might be good for DMs planning dragon encounters who want help to post it here. Those who want to help these DMs can post as well. Then they can get together at a time that's good for them in the chat room and run some battles.

 

[BenBrown]

Retreating.

This holds for any intelligent monster. Don't attack blindly. Dragons are tough enough and fast enough and smart enough, they can generally retreat if things get bad, and live to fight another day.

Okay, you drove the dragon away. You've got the horde. You've also got a dragon mad at you, and you've got all the villagers mad at you for arousing the dragon's ire. But it's smart, and will choose the battlefield itself. So, coming out of the tomb of the lich-king, which you've barely survived, you suddenly have a dragon waiting for you, all healed up, who is perfectly willing to parley, just for the fun of humiliating you.

 

[novyet]

I agree with both of you, a lot of it comes down to inexperience with playing a dragon to it's fullest, which I'm guilty of as well. I do think that the workshop idea may not be a bad idea, as it would give dm's and players alike a chance to run a combat with a fully realized dragon, giving dm's everywhere valuable pointers. Count me in!

 

[Holy Bovine]

I posted this in the membership drive thread but I feel it has a place here too. For what its worth here's a little more about our favourite scaly friends

Remember that Dragons don't just have to be combat gods by themselves. A network of spies, informers and general thugs(all charmed of course) will infiltrate any towns near the Dragons lair and keep tabs on local politics and any adventuring groups that come by.

They can plant misinformation, ambush the party or capture lone members to be brought before the Dragon and charmed themselves (or replaced by a Doggleganger ally of the Dragons') only to be released to join the party again.

If the party is allowed to actually find the Dragon's lair then they will never know how many of their group are actually charmed or replaced with Dopplegangers!

Also if you can find a copy of Dungeon magazine #16 (even on eBay they rarely go for more than $5-7) - it has one of the best examples of intelligent Dragon uses I have ever seen (although the treasure hoard is way too big) - its the adventure with the pirate city of Scrape. Nice touches like the Dragon (a small Green, very intelligent but puny for its age) having an enormous mirror to cast its reflection in to ditract the party in the first round. hit and run tactics galore and several escape routes from its lair planned and prepared.

 

[Psion]

What do you suggest for DM's aspiring to run a climatic battle with a dragon?

Well, I don't run dragons that much, but have learned a few tricks over the years.

1. Don't forget the spells - I cannot overstate the importance of this, especially now that dragons in 3e have sorcerer level. But even in 2e, I had a DM who used a few spells to great effect. (A green dragon with a paltry 2 2nd level spells once awaited us in its lair, invisible and levitating. A red dragon scried on one of our parties with clairaudience and knew how to counter our well laid plans.) Select spells like a dragon would take, not like a character would take. A fireball is useless to a red dragon, but a cone of cold will catch your players off guard. A feeblemind will handle that mage. A hold person is a good bet against that damage machine fighter (or better, dominate.)
2. Thou shalt not get trapped in thy lair - A dragon loses much of its effectiveness if it cannot fly. Flying helps keep it out of the reach of the melee-god fighters, and gives it the best vantage point for its breath weapons.
3. Breathe early, breathe often - Dragon's most powerful attack is a breath weapon. In 3e, this is doubly so since it has no hard per day limit. Don't pussyfoot around! Use that breath weapon! Don't wait for the right moment like you would with a mage with just one fireball. As soon as a shot is available, take it and worry about better opportunities later! With parties whittling away at your HP, there may be no second attack.
4. Fight on your terms - Parties with well laid plans are the biggest threat to dragons. The solution: don't let them pick the time and the place. You do it. Use servitors and magic to tell you when a threat is coming, and attack them before they attack you.
5. Know thy dragons - Have a complete stat sheet set out for the dragon, with important abilities highlighted. It's the best way to make sure you don't forget something. I recommend Charles Greathouse's dragon stat block generator.
6. Munch out thy dragon - Dragons have a huge complement of spells, skills, and feats. A dragon will have had time in its life contemplating how to use these. So pick an appropriate feat chain for your dragon, and consider how the dragon would fight ahead of time.
7. Be saavy to party tactics - Be wary of attempts to constrain you or hit you with annoying spell like harm. If you are high enough level, consider contingency.
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   There was a dragon issue of Dragon last year... I don't know how much of this is replicated there... those are just my thoughts.

 

[Wolfspider]

So, coming out of the tomb of the lich-king, which you've barely survived, you suddenly have a dragon waiting for you, all healed up, who is perfectly willing to parley, just for the fun of humiliating you.

Oh, I like this!!!

Very good comments all around. To the workshop I go! Unfortunately, I won't be talking about dragons....

 

[Carnifex]

Some more tactics:

1) Breath Weapons and Illusions Mix. Use various illusions to set up to make an area look much smaller than it really is, making the party cluster together more for maximum effect from the 1st round breath weapon attack. The dragon can hide somewhere nearby behind illusions, ready to take the party by surprise.

If you use lots of illusions, chaos may erupt as tsome party members see through some illusions but not others, and they all start telling each other, unsure as to what the hell really is real. Choose this point for the breath weapon attack

2)Wide Open Subdividing. If confronted in a large open space, with the dragon diving around and blasting the party with various spells or long-ranged breath weapon, the party will doubtless be tempted to split up to make les of a mass target. Then chase down one at a time and full attack them into so much mince. This is actually best for taking out fighters than mages, since a full attack can tear down even tough h-t-h fighters and if they're on their own without the support of other front-line tanks they become quite vulnerable. Especially effective with the really old age categories who pack a massive punch with even one claw.

3)Use effective combat tactics and feats! Give the dragon Improved Disarm or Sunder and simply remove the threat of the fighters by pulling their fangs (metaphorically - the literal fang-pulling can occur later when you've captured the whole party).

4)Poisonous Punches. Have the dragon dip his claws in poison before the fight (especially suited to black and green dragons), so those claw attacks have an extra element of lethality to them.

5) Cover the Flanks. Never let the dragon get surrounded, and if it does, fly up. Flanking attacks by rogues hurt enough as it is. Use of Summon Monster spells, illusionary terrain and correct tactical placement can help avoid the problem of a dragon being hememd in and beaten down.