Bag of tricks bag of trick bag of tricks yesss.

[Gailbraithe]

Not to start an edition war, but this new version of the bag of tricks (gray) really captures exactly why 4E leaves me cold in my tracks.

Looking at the creatures that pop out of the gray bag of tricks, I notice they all have some amount of combat usefulness. It seems that this new bag of tricks is designed to pull out something that might help you out in combat. maybe not much, but a little. It's even there in the description: "This simple, leather bag produces feral critters that you can send against your enemies." (emphasis added)The original gray bag of tricks, which has been pretty much unchanged since 1E, has no combat usefulness. Even in 3.5, only one of the creatures that could be pulled was combat effective (the wolverine), the rest would take an AOO just closing with an enemy and had a hit point, and crappy ACs.

To make use of the gray bag of tricks you had to be creative, you had to think outside the box. I've always been a huge fan of items like the gray bag of tricks that aren't immediately useful and require clever thing to exploit. I've seen some players come up with some absolutely amazing and interesting uses of critters from the bag of tricks. I've seen players used them maliciously (as "mine sweepers" or tasty treats to bribe monsters), and I've seen players dutifully scoop their animals back up into the bag because they've named the little buggers.

But I have never, once, seen a player whip out the bag of tricks to use in combat to summon combat support. Yet here it is, the 4E gray bag of tricks, with all of it's noncombat usefulness stripped away (notice the total lack of non-combat related information, compare with the 3.5 description of the item), and turned into a "throw a cat at your opponents, watch it die" gag.

All of 4E kind of comes off this way to me, with all the stuff that requires one think a bit to see the usefulness transformed into something simplistic, direct and with a clear combat related purpose. Which I just find really...uninteresting and dull.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

They had a mundane weapon in the preview, so hopefully they have "normal" equipment.

They have also promised alchemical items.

That bag had more charecter then a lot of the PHB items (which where pretty dry). I hope to see more of the same.

Well, given that the mundane item previewed is brutally useful (pun intended), I sure hope it's a superior weapon

...which would be a good thing, on second thought, because God knows we need more superior weapons (including a BigAssAnimeSword for those who complain that the Bastard Sword makes the Greatsword cry in the corner )

Alchemical items that are useful across the board (heroic, paragon and epic), and some nice mundane items (musical instruments, signet rings, spyglasses and other stupid things PCs like to spend money on) would be nice too.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Well, I must disagree with your impression Gailbraithe.

Just looking at Everlasting Provisions, Rope of Climbing, Sending stones... these items have no combat utility whatsoever... but they are universally useful to PCs

The 3rd edition bag of tricks was lots of fun, yes... In fact, it was so funny that it was prominently featured in Order of the Stick as a running joke. The new version is much more interesting, IMHO.

 

[greyscale1]

Gailbraithe:

I disagree: while this write-up doesn't explicitly say that you can use the item for non-combat purposes, it still practically screams to be used in such a way. Only now the player has DIRECT control over the creature. Its combat usefulness just means that the player who buys the fun bag of tricks wont be gimped in combat compared to their friends who focus on traditional combat items. The combat usefulness just makes the fun items more viable ways to spend money.

Personally, I never really cared for my fun items explicitly being so. That's probably why it doesn't irk me that most items are now combat items with implied fun other uses. Its up to the wacky players to abuse these crazily.

 

[wighair]

Can the creature act as soon as it is summoned?

 

[Gailbraithe]

I disagree: while this write-up doesn't explicitly say that you can use the item for non-combat purposes, it still practically screams to be used in such a way.

I really don't see how you can claim that making absolutely no mention of non-combat uses and listing only one possible use (combat) for the item "practically screams" that this item is to be used in such a way.

That's probably why it doesn't irk me that most items are now combat items with implied fun other uses.

Nothing in that write-up implies that there are other uses for the item than combat. I don't mean to insult you, but there is absolutely no way you could justify this statement.Either you're making these claims out of a misplaced desire to defend 4E from a legitimate criticism with an illegitimate rebuttal, or you really don't understand how implication works.

Either way, that item description implies no such thing.

Just looking at Everlasting Provisions, Rope of Climbing, Sending stones... these items have no combat utility whatsoever... but they are universally useful to PCs

I haven't seen those items. Nor was I saying that there were no such items.

I'm only saying that the primary reason I haven't picked up 4E, and probably never will, is this general trend I see towards simplifying items so that it requires no actual creativity to make the item useful. That is just my opinion, but every time I've opened up the 4E books and started reading, it's taken me less than a paragraph to read something clearly changed from previous edition to make it idiot-proof, and consequently, no longer interesting to me.

Like this gray bag of tricks is, in my opinion, really really stupid. I mena c'mon, at 8th level you're going to throw a cat at someone?

Really?

 

[rexartur]

Nothing in that write-up implies that there are other uses for the item than combat. I don't mean to insult you, but there is absolutely no way you could justify this statement.Either you're making these claims out of a misplaced desire to defend 4E from a legitimate criticism with an illegitimate rebuttal, or you really don't understand how implication works.

Either way, that item description implies no such thing.

Not that I'm trying to convince you to play 4E (everyone has to make their own choices about what defines fun), and I may be missing part of your point, but doesn't it say the summoned creature lasts for an encounter or 5 minutes? I took it that the 5 minute duration definitely meant the option for non-combat use existed. Given that, my opinion of this 4E bag is that it is just as useful, does not negate creative non-combat use, and has added combat-specific clarifications.

Just my opinion, though.

Z

 

[The_Fan]

To be fair, it's one badass cat. A cat that deals 4 damage on a hit and auto-trips? Never underestimate a short fuzzy thing hitting the shins.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Like this gray bag of tricks is, in my opinion, really really stupid. I mena c'mon, at 8th level you're going to throw a cat at someone?

Really?

Well, to do a fair comparison, you must understand that in fourth edition, a level 8 party is comparable to a third edition party of levels 4 or 5.

8th level PCs in fourth edition are still expected to be fighting Orcs, Gnolls and Ogres, with the occasional Displacer Beast, Bulette or Minotaur.

So yeah, I believe throwing a large, muscular cat (think a full-sized, muscular, angry tom) to the Gnoll shaman's face to make him trip is very logical.

 

[Caliber]

Wouldn't a Tiny creature have 0 Reach and draw OAs for entering an enemy's space anyway?

What kind of rules could they write to make you use it creatively? Wouldn't that be better left for the player to ... create?