Balance For Irresistable Damage?

[Deekin]

Compare to Swarm of Crystals

Swarm of Crystals
Metacreativity (Creation)
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3

Thousands of tiny crystal shards spray forth in an arc from your hand. These razorlike crystals slice everything in their path. Anyone caught in the cone takes 3d4 points of slashing damage.
Augment

For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d4 points.

Cons of the Spell
- Single Target
-Higher Level

Pros of the Spell
-Longer Range

 

[Rystil Arden]

Compare to Swarm of Crystals



Cons of the Spell
- Single Target
-Higher Level

Pros of the Spell
-Longer Range

Comparing spells to Psionic powers for damaging is a bit misleading, though, since the Psion has to pay for an 8th-level Power if she manifests SoC to do 15d4, where the Wizard still pays for a 4th-level spell.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Inspired by the recent thread on the orb spells.

Assume the following spell exists:

In order of this spell to be balanced, how much damage should it deal, and what are your reasons for your choice?

I would have liked another option "Less than 15d2". I want something that can't be metamagicked up to do 100+ irresistible damage at higher levels. Alternatively, barring the use of metamagic on the spell would help. Realistically, balanced or not, I wouldn't include that spell for flavour reasons--it seems dumb that a 7th-level Conjurer spectator (who admittedly has no chance of winning this way) can shoot off this spell through the evil Warlord's new Invincible-Antimagic-Immunity-Field or whatever and automatically affect him. It just makes the scene less awe-inspiring, much like the village idiot who laughed at the Emperor's New Clothes.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I would have liked another option "Less than 15d2". I want something that can't be metamagicked up to do 100+ irresistible damage at higher levels.

I agree. I think that 5d6 for a 5th level spell would be all right (average 17.5). 15d2 for a 4th level spell (average 22.5) might be OK, but I'd hesitate to allow it to set that precedent.

 

[Nail]

In order of this spell to be balanced, how much damage should it deal, and what are your reasons for your choice?

This spell cannot be balanced...because you took all of the balancing factors out!

 

[FireLance]

This spell cannot be balanced...because you took all of the balancing factors out!

I take it you're going for option 5, then? Otherwise, the 1d2 option gets you a 4th-level spell that deals 10.5 damage on average at 7th level, and 22.5 damage on average at 15th level (45 damage on average at 15th level if twinned).

 

[Nail]

Damage dealing spells have several balancing factors. I am confident that if you remove all but one (the raw damage), problems of all sorts will develop.

 

[FireLance]

I would have liked another option "Less than 15d2". I want something that can't be metamagicked up to do 100+ irresistible damage at higher levels.

Using Arcane Thesis, two Easy Metamagic feats for Quicken and Twin Spell, four metamagic feats (Empower, Maximize, Quicken and Twin) and two ninth level slots, I got about 143 points of irresistable damage at 17th level. If that seems like too much damage for seven feats and two ninth-level spell slots, what do you think is a more reasonable damage range for the amount of resources the character has committed?

 

[FireLance]

Damage dealing spells have several balancing factors. I am confident that if you remove all but one (the raw damage), problems of all sorts will develop.

I personally think that this spell is more situationally useful, especially if it deals lower damage compared to the other spells. It's the kind of spell you'd only want if you're facing an opponent with high touch AC AND high SR AND good saving throws AND universal resistance or immunity to energy attacks, since you can otherwise find a spell that is more effective and exploits one of the gaps in his defences.

 

[FireLance]

I agree. I think that 5d6 for a 5th level spell would be all right (average 17.5). 15d2 for a 4th level spell (average 22.5) might be OK, but I'd hesitate to allow it to set that precedent.

A secondary question: if you think 4th level is too low for a spell that deals irresistable damage, what is the minimum level you think such a spell should be set at? 6th, to be on par with antimagic field and globe of invulnerability? Or even higher than that?