Balance For Irresistable Damage?

[Notmousse]

Where is this Easy Metamagic feat comming from?! Are there requirements? What does it even do?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Using Arcane Thesis, two Easy Metamagic feats for Quicken and Twin Spell, four metamagic feats (Empower, Maximize, Quicken and Twin) and two ninth level slots, I got about 143 points of irresistable damage at 17th level. If that seems like too much damage for seven feats and two ninth-level spell slots, what do you think is a more reasonable damage range for the amount of resources the character has committed?

I think it is--that's too much absolute guaranteed damage (against a god or what-have-you even) for any price in feats, and most of those feats (except Thesis) are great for everything else too.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Where is this Easy Metamagic feat comming from?! Are there requirements? What does it even do?

Easy Metamagic is from Dragon magazine. It subtracts one level from the metamagic level adjustment so an easy metamagicked empowered spell would only be one level slot higher than normal, not two.

 

[moritheil]

Damage dealing spells have several balancing factors. I am confident that if you remove all but one (the raw damage), problems of all sorts will develop.

I'm with Nail on this one.

 

[frankthedm]

Damage dealing spells have several balancing factors. I am confident that if you remove all but one (the raw damage), problems of all sorts will develop.

Yep. Every Attack should have to deal with SR & Energy resist or AC & DR. Anything that does not, needs to be watched carefully. Anything that gets around all of that is a no-no.

 

[Notmousse]

Oh jeez... Claiming something is broken by adding Dragon stuff to it?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh jeez... Claiming something is broken by adding Dragon stuff to it?

I thought I was using the identical one from Races of the Dragon, but I seem to have flubbed the name. Regardless, very little of the damage comes from that feat. Arcane Thesis from PHII does 90% of the heavy lifting.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Isn't this really just a supped up version of Magic Missle? I realize that Magic Missle is subject to SR (I believe, but didn't check so could be wrong). That would set a d4 dice, but there is the multiple missles (and much smaller dice cap). MM is also a 1st level spell.

Aside Question:

Here's a question, though. With all the complaining I've heard about SR and energy damage - especially of late, do you think D&D would be a better game with SR removed (and compensated for by lowering spell damage dice, of course). People could still have energy protection/resistance. But would the game be better had SR never been introduced?

[Note: I have no personal answer, so please don't read the question assuming any answer. Consider my question completely neutral in tone.]

 

[moritheil]

Are you kidding? I liked it better when SR was MR - it underlined the fundamental futility of trying to use magic against things like demons and golems. Now it's just a question of having a high caster level. Yawn.

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay, here's how I'd see it.

If you take your common fireball, for the vast majority of creatures, they will take half damage on their reflex save. So a 10th level fireball does 35 avg damage, 17.5 could be considered "irresistable" (as far as saves go). This is also the average damage of magic missile.

Now, this spell negates SR and resistances. However, its also much closer range, single target, and a level higher. If we consider all these +'s and -'s to cancel out, then a spell that consistently does 17.5 damage would be okay in my book. This puts it in the same ballgame as magic missile for damage (which is often irresitable to many creatures) but takes it to the extreme. No shield spell, no SR, no globe of invulnerability will help you, you just take it.

This is a reasonable comparison, but we have to be fair here. Orbs do have defenses: Miss Chance and Energy Resistance.

Unfortunately, very few monsters and typically spell casters have access to either of these as a general rule. There are a few magic items that also provide these defenses, but it is unlikely that any DM is going to provide these items to the majority of his NPCs. The only way most creatures can have a defense is by using cover or concealment or fighting in melee (which can be handled by the caster by taking Precise Shot or handled by his allies by taking appropriate 5 foot steps in combat).

I think a comparison to Magic Missile is closer than one to Fireball. No SR, but much shorter range and a few minor defenses.

So at 9th level, a 4th level Orb should do slightly more than 5D6 (the effective damage of a 1st level Magic Missile), but less than the current 9D6. 9D4 is reasonable I think. It just makes it a souped up Magic Missile for a 4th level spell (with some minor defenses and limited range). This would also decrease the amount of damage doable via Empower and Maximize.