Balance implications of Cheaper Multiclassing?

[Obryn]

This could go into the House Rules area, but I'd like to ponder the balance of multiclassing for a bit.

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm re-reading the 4e FR stuff (and being pleasantly surprised it's better than I remember!) I love the idea of the Spellscarred multiclass, but as I've gotten more and more experience with 4e, I've started to wonder... Is multiclassing just way too expensive? The recent article on Skill Powers kind of added to the questions.

As it stands, in order to multiclass, I need to...

(1) Spend a "starter" feat that makes me a member of this class,
(2) Spend individual feats for every Power I want to swap,
(3) Give up a Power for every Power I swap.

And I guess I'm wondering if, so long as the limit of 1 Encounter, 1 Daily, and 1 Utility are kept, why the additional Feats should be necessary?

So I open this up to you, Rules-Monkeys. If swapping powers were cheaper, what sorts of fire and brimstone would rain down?

-O

 

[RangerWickett]

I did see some jank when I used similar rule: one feat to multiclass into a class, and then you can choose powers freely from any of your classes. (I didn't limit to only 1 non-primary power of each type: encounter, daily, utility.)

A bard PC multi'd into paladin, warlord, and barbarian for some ridiculous party buffing when he chose to nova. It was sort of the last straw in my own personal tolerance of the 'daily powers' aspect of 4e. When he wasn't nova'ing, though, he was pretty balanced, so I suppose if you keep the "one-of-each" limit, you'll probably be fine.

 

[Obryn]

Yeah, I don't want to allow completely free choice of Powers. That's not even a little in the cards.

-O

 

[abyssaldeath]

I think it's too expensive to paragon multi-class. I don't think any power swap feats should be necessary to paragon multi-class.

I deffinately wouldn't allow power swaping for free, but I could see making one feat that lets you swap out one power for each type of power.

 

[DracoSuave]

Isn't that what they sort of do with the Hybrid?

 

[kaomera]

Personally I would retain the limit of characters having only one secondary class. Limiting swapped powers to one of each power type isn't bad either, more than that seems like it would be better handled with a Hybrid character.

The base multiclass feats are frontloaded; if you have the appropriate ability score and can use the skill training they are very attractive. Still, with feats like Weapon Expertise around I don't think it's a problem. The power swap feats seem designed to avoid cases where a character might exploit a particular synergy between their main class and a power from their secondary class... Unfortunately I think that the effect is to make it so that the power-swap feats will never be taken execpt for exploitative purposes... (I don't know how to phrase that better - it's not really a bad thing, just I don't see many players taking power-swpas for mainly "flavor" reasons...) As such I think that giving out the power-swap feats (at the levels they would normally be available?) as bonus feats if you take a base multiclass feat would be too bad... I do think that pretty much every character would take one.

The other issue is Paragon multiclassing. If paragon multiclassing offered a real bonus then the extra cost of the power-swap feats might be more worth it. (Although I don't think I like paying "up-front" costs a number of levels before the benefits become available...) But paragon multiclassing is generally much weaker than taking an actual Paragon Path. Personally I would be interested in seeing specific multi-class Paragon Paths (with all of the normal features of a PP), but that would be quite a few extra PPS...

 

[Flipguarder]

Make the first multiclass feat just as it is.
Make the second and further feats allow you to swap one encounter and a utility power each. Or one daily and one utility power each.

Replace the paragon multi-classing text to this.

Paragon Multiclassing
If you have at least 3 multi-class feats , you can choose to continue
to choose to paragon multi-class. This offers the following benefits in lieu of a paragon path.
11th level, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your second class.
11th level: When you spend an action point, you can instead of gaining another action, replace an encounter or at-will power with another from either your main class or your paragon path class. This replacement lasts until the end of your next turn
In place of a paragon path encounter power gained at 11th level, you can select any encounter power of 7th level or lower from your second class.
16th level: The feature you gained from your multi-class feat, such as a healing word provided from [Initiate of faith] is usable once more for it's delineation of time (in the case of healing word, since it is usable once per day, it would now be usable twice per day.
In place of the paragon path utility power gained at 12th level, you can select any utility power of 10th level or lower from your second class.
In place of the paragon path daily power gained at 20th level, you can select any daily power of 19th level or lower from your second class.

I understand the 16th level feature is not picture perfect, as it only works for those mc feats that do provide something like that.

 

[keterys]

Generally speaking, it's pretty easy to find a power that will be better for your character than your own choices. Whether that's because the power is more powerful than those of your class's or just suits your playstyle more, eh... the question then becomes if it's worth a feat.

So, my fighter cheerfully traded his level 2 utility which he was always meh on for the ability to minor action divine sanction all enemies within burst 3. My barbarian cheerfully traded his level 7 encounter power (which I wasn't enthused about) for Come and Get It, which is crazy shiny fantastic.

My warlord would consider taking paladin abilities, but none of them have been worth a feat. I'd probably look carefully at powers if it were free, though. Maybe still not take anything, but at least I'd think about it

 

[aurance]

My opinion (both from play and from extensive perusing of CharOp boards) is that each power swap feat is in many cases A Very Good Option, as long as one is careful about the choices he makes. In other words, definitely worth a feat as long as you know what you're doing. I'm not inclined to reduce their cost.

Paragon Multiclassing is sort of like that, but the "as long as you know what you're doing" margin is significantly less tolerant than for the power swap feats. A few combinations that are great, some that are okay, and most that are not worth it. I may add a few additional (conservative) benefits to PMC.

 

[Starfox]

The power swap feats seem designed to avoid cases where a character might exploit a particular synergy between their main class and a power from their secondary class... Unfortunately I think that the effect is to make it so that the power-swap feats will never be taken execpt for exploitative purposes...

My opinion (both from play and from extensive perusing of CharOp boards) is that each power swap feat is in many cases A Very Good Option, as long as one is careful about the choices he makes. In other words, definitely worth a feat as long as you know what you're doing. I'm not inclined to reduce their cost.

Paragon Multiclassing is sort of like that, but the "as long as you know what you're doing" margin is significantly less tolerant than for the power swap feats. A few combinations that are great, some that are okay, and most that are not worth it. I may add a few additional (conservative) benefits to PMC.

Basically, both these posts explain my concerns (from a positive and negative angle) - power swap multiclassing is suicide if done for concept reasons but can be a bomb if done right. Something like 95% of all combinations are not worth it, but the remaining 5% still merits the cost.

I hate how expensive multiclassing is, and I don't find hybridization solves the issue as it does not merge the classes, merely creates two classes back to back (for example a Sorcerer/Rogue cannot sneak attack with spells).

I am seriously considering handing out the power-swap feat fro free, but I might also take the easier solution and switch to a classless system.