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Balance in 4th: All Powers for All Classes All the Time?

takasi

First Post
I see in your post you don't list at-will when you talk about limits though, hence my confusion.

You could grant at-wills also, essentially letting a fighter cleave one turn and magic missile the next. Items and ability scores, IMO, would help balance this out, and add a lot of variety to tactics. You could force a limited number of at-wills to choose from, but do you think the system is broken if you don't? What are some combos that stand out?

Utility would need some boundaries, but it would not be so complicated that it isn't workable. If you use an at will utility for a given level in an encounter then you must continue to use at will utilities of that level for that encounter. If you use an encounter power during the day then you must continue using encounter powers for the day. If you use a daily power then you can no longer use any utilities of that level for the day.
 

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MonkeyMage

First Post
I would limit switching powers to either one switch per level, as per normal retraining rules, or one switch per extended rest at most. It eliminates the problems with utility powers. Also to keep some semblance of logically power choices, I would restrict them to picking powers only from the same power source (Arcane, Divine, Martial).

Just my two cents.
 


keterys

First Post
I think it'd mostly work fine from a theoretical perspective - the main problem are with defenders using certain striker powers. Specifically, things like riposte strike and eyebite ('You want to attack me! You're screwed if you attack me!')

Keeping it contained by role would solve that problem just fine.

I would suggest allowing switches at short rests or extended rests, rather than just on the fly. But if your group really wants such a setup (book flipping, fairly random assortments of abilities, etc), go nuts. Whatever's fun for you.
 

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
Allowing players to have all that particular level's powers would be kinda cool. However, I would recommend having players pick their repetoire whenever they take an extended rest.
 

eleventh

First Post
I currently run a PbP homebrew game in which players get access to powers from all the classes. Instead of leveling up a single class, they can earn ranks in each class, which determines what powers are available to them. The formula is Power level = ((Rank)*3)+1. So at rank 0/1/2/3, they can use level 1/4/7/10 powers, etc. My game is also broken into single battles and things like resting are moot. Thus, I allow them each to choose to use one daily power or two encounter powers each battle and as many at-wills as they want. The game is also largely player-vs-player. So far, it's worked well.
 

MonkeyMage

First Post
I think it'd mostly work fine from a theoretical perspective - the main problem are with defenders using certain striker powers. Specifically, things like riposte strike and eyebite ('You want to attack me! You're screwed if you attack me!')

Keeping it contained by role would solve that problem just fine.

Given that this scenario would only be possible by spending an action point to get the extra attack and is reliant on both attacks hitting. And besides neither effect is world endingly powerful, one gives you another small attack with your non-standard attribute and the other gives them a -5 on the attack you forced them to make.
 

darjr

I crit!
I'm really interested in allowing characters powers from throughout their role. Sounds like it could work. All else being the same that is.

Cool kinda meta character class.
 

takasi

First Post
Yesterday I ran WotC's November Delve "into the Shadows" with a group of 30+ year RPG vets. Here were the rules:

1. Ability scores. Roll 5d6 and drop the lowest 2. I'd like to watch in case you pull off a full set of 18s.

2. Roles and class selection. This game does not emphasize roles. If you want to play 4 wizards from Warthog's Wizards Academy or a trio of thieves or a coven of cerics you can. See changes to power selections below that make this more feasible.

3. Power selection. This is a radical departure from the rules. You may activate ANY at will, encounter or daily power, even if it does not belong to your class. You are still restricted to the number of encounter and daily powers you are allowed to activate per level. Utility powers must be chosen per class as per the normal rules. Daily powers are per encounter rather than per day.

For example, let's say you roll up a Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13 and Cha 13. You want to be a human fighter, so you add 2 to your Str to give you a 17. You have the basic class features, like combat superiority and weapon style talent. However, you can try to cleave one turn and cast magic missile the next. He could also activate a Bastion of Defense and Divine Glow during that encounter.

4. Items. Every class is proficient with all (non superior) weapons, armor and items. Note that most magic items are restricted by armor and type. (For example, in a normal campaign my cleric can wear heavy armor but he chooses hide armor because he wants the Bloodcut property.)

5. Books. I'll have non WotC sourcebooks with new powers to try and I am offering new powers that I have written for playtesting. If you would like to write you own power I will review it for use.

All of these players have tried 4th edition before and most of them have said they do not care for it. They seemed very pleased with this session, with one coming up to me afterwards and saying "I want to settle a longtime discussion we've been having about 4th edition....this is the way they should have done it!"

The game was not substantially slower, and one thing I found interesting is that everyone was eagerly reading through books when it wasn't their turn. They were engaged in thought 100% of the session, always thinking about the next best option for their character.

As a constrast, later that day I went out of town with my wife and her girlfriend to a party to run a Living Forgotten Realms module. This was the first time my wife had played 4th edition, and the first time her friend had ever played D&D. We used the normal rules (not this freeform power selection houserule), and instead of using books I wrote down all the info they needed on a couple of color coded index cards. These two are completely addicted to WoW, and I tried to explain everything in terms of an MMO. They caught right on and LOVED the game. Although they were nervous and thought it might be too overwhelming to learn all of the rules, the simple at-will, encounter and daily powers gave them just enough strategy without confusing them.

So in summary, I had a very fascinating day exploring how the existing rules are perfect for beginner players. For vets who complain that the game feels stale, opening up powers (even just spontaneous selection within one's class) is a good option for adding more strategy back into the game.
 

RyvenCedrylle

First Post
Takasi, I'd be curious to know how many different classes of power each PC dipped into? My instinct tells me that mutual attribute dependency gave you a lot of ranger-rogues, wizard-warlocks and fighter-rangers, but not a lot of cleric/rogue/wizard/fighters.

I like the concept, but not quite so extreme. Perhaps a game where any martial character could spontaneously access Warlord powers (there could also be 2 Inspiring Words by the group per encounter) trash the Cleric and give the Paladin spontaneous access to the Cleric's powers... and then make Clerics ritual-only NPCs.... I'll have to think about this.
 

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