Balance test: does +2 Int make a race at least +1 LA?

[Epametheus]

And thus one of the great discrepencies of the system rears its head.

A -2 to Cha isn't enough of a penalty to balance out +2 Str, but +2 Cha is so great that it's worth an entire level? Whoopdefreakin' do, the sorcerer has 7 spells per day instead of 6, or whatever...

Of course, the official stat hierarchy puts Str at the top, while I'd put Con at the top.

I've seen only two elves played in long-term campaigns since 3E came out, and both those elves started at high levels; the Con penalty is a big enough deterrent that most of the people in my groups never even look at elves when making a new character.

If races can be barred from effectively playing most of the spellcaster classes due to stat penalties (like the poor half-orc), then I think it's okay for some races to just be inherently better at some forms of magic.

 

[Particle_Man]

hmmm...that leads to another thought.

In a world where there are less races (say, only dwarves and gnomes, or only orcs, half-orcs and humans), then there would, in effect, be a race with a mental stat two points higher than the only other available PC races (since dwarf, orc and half-orc have such penalties). Yet according to the core rules, all such races are + 0 LA. So is the gnome worth a +1 LA compared to the less charismatic dwarf, since the gnome is a better sorceror (and small to boot!)?

If the gnome is not better than the dwarf (or at least not enough better to warrant a +1 LA), then why would having a +2 to a mental stat need to result in a +1 LA?

 

[Epametheus]

Because a 20 in a mental stat is considered to be significantly better than a 20 in a physical stat, due to the extra 1st level bonus spell.

 

[Scion]

By who?

Having a 20 str is an incredible thing, it pretty well makes you able to deal with any low level threats all day long until you are out of hp.

Whereas the caster gets a whole couple of spells that might take out something his cr, maybe.

20 con? hp all over the place, great fort save, etc.

::shrugs:: all stats are worth something, mental stats are only worth as much as physical stats to the caster, otherwise people tend to start placing a lower standard to them. After all, fighter types generally need a good str, dex, and con. They can give up dex sometimes and pick up some mental stat of their choice..

Effectively, a +2 to any stat is roughly equal in use to a class that will use it. Which means that none of them are worth a +1 LA, or all of them are. One of the two.

 

[Particle_Man]

Because a 20 in a mental stat is considered to be significantly better than a 20 in a physical stat, due to the extra 1st level bonus spell.

So, a very few characters (those with a 20 in the mental stat) get 2 bonus 1st level spells instead of one.

Yet any gnome with 10 or higher in CHR gets 3 bonus 0 level spells. Are gnomes therefore worthy of being +1 LA?

 

[Epametheus]

So, a very few characters (those with a 20 in the mental stat) get 2 bonus 1st level spells instead of one.

Yet any gnome with 10 or higher in CHR gets 3 bonus 0 level spells. Are gnomes therefore worthy of being +1 LA?

0th level spells are negligible. An extra Color Spray per day means something at 1st level, but an extra Prestidigitation means nothing at all.

I don't think +2 a mental stat should be worth +1 LA in of itself, either.

 

[The Spectrum Rider]

I've made it very clear to the players in my campaign that a race (very much like your Turquoise) with -10 to all abilities but Int and Int +2 is LA +1.

I adamantly refuse to allow spellcasters the ultimate choice -- the intelligence (or Wis/Cha) they'd normally have to pay LA for *plus* the uninterrupted spellcasting of LA +0.

It would be terrible for campaign variety -- there would almost never be other races used as spellcasters, since the spellcasting stat is generally all the players care about.

Well, your players, maybe. Many players that I know - including all the players in my campagin (I'm not bragging, they make their own decisions) - choose race based on roleplaying considerations. I have a +2 Cha, -2 Con homebrew race - they don't jump at it. And when they do take it, they don't always play sorcerers or bards. Weird, huh? But the race has a culture that fits better with rangers and druids, and in addition the cultural baggage (although balanced) simply doesn't always match what the players want to play.

And -2 Con affects both Fort saves *and* Hit Points, so everyone takes it seriously regardless of their chosen class. I've also tried to design the campaign - in terms of homebrew monster abilities, enounter varieties, custom maigc items, and so on - so that there really aren't any "dump stats." Everything comes into play sooner or later, and matters. (Now I *am* bragging, but I'm comfortable with that.)

I have some other homebrew races that are: +2 Int, -2 Cha; +2 Cha, -2 Wis; and +Cha, -2 Con. Nobody seems to grab them just for the stats - only when they want to role-play that particular race. You may think these folks are just dumb; I think they're a lot of fun to game with.

The Spectrum Rider

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well, your players, maybe. Many players that I know - including all the players in my campagin (I'm not bragging, they make their own decisions) - choose race based on roleplaying considerations.

'Cmon, you know what I mean. They don't care about hit points, carrying capacity/melee attacks/ranged attacks/etc. when they're playing a caster.

I've had plenty of players ask to play races even before I write the race's PC stats...

I have some other homebrew races that are: +2 Int, -2 Cha; +2 Cha, -2 Wis; and +Cha, -2 Con. Nobody seems to grab them just for the stats - only when they want to role-play that particular race. You may think these folks are just dumb; I think they're a lot of fun to game with.

It's not about the players, it's about the setting. Having no races with mental bonuses at ECL +0 makes casters less attractive, which is one of my goals for the setting.

Designing races carefully is a good form of world-building.

 

[Psiblade]

The +2 int is really only balanced by a stat that most wizards care about con. +2 int -2 con is balanced even for a wizard favored class. +2 int -2str is not balanced, the race in question is simply the premier wizards/psions in the game.

-Psiblade

 

[CRGreathouse]

CDG: So did you add a +1 LA to all the core races with stat modifiers in 3.0 when the psionics handbook came out cause they have an adjustment to a primary stat for the psion since the primary stats were dependant upon which type of psion you were (and they had one for each stat)?

I didn't use 3.0 psionics, and in 3.5 they use mental stats.

In the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the only races that give bonuses to mental ability scores have LA >= 1.