Balanced PrCs and underpowered PrCs.

[CRGreathouse]

The Divine Agent (MotP) is amazingly weak. It's a spellcasting prestige class with requirements and 1/2 spellcasting. I cringed suggesting it to a player for whom it was very appropriate, because I knew it was too weak...

Really, it needs a rewrite. Is it in CD? I can't remember, and I haven't picked it up (yet?).

 

[Psion]

The Divine Agent (MotP) is amazingly weak. It's a spellcasting prestige class with requirements and 1/2 spellcasting. I cringed suggesting it to a player for whom it was very appropriate, because I knew it was too weak...

Really, it needs a rewrite. Is it in CD? I can't remember, and I haven't picked it up (yet?).

It's not.

I considered simply upping spellcasting advancement to 3/4 (or 4/5), and perhaps shoring up some of the more laughable class abilities

 

[spectre72]

The Arcane Archer immediately springs to mind as one of the rather weak classes...

I find this very strange since one of the most powerfull characters in our campaign (6-10th level) was an arcane archer.

This character by far did more damage per round than anyone else in the party, and was never close to getting into combat.

What is your reasoning for saying that it is weak?

I am just interested on what you base your opinion.

Thanks
Scott

 

[Psion]

I find this very strange since one of the most powerfull characters in our campaign (6-10th level) was an arcane archer.

This character by far did more damage per round than anyone else in the party, and was never close to getting into combat.

What is your reasoning for saying that it is weak?

I don't know if it's weak now having not had anyone try one in 3.5e (and never had a player who ran one who "got it" in 3.0), but I think in 3.5, the fact that weapon enhancement bonuses don't stack between bow and arrow anymore sort of nerfed the class.

However, astute players with good item creation in the party will quickly note that while enhancement bonuses don't stack on ammo, special qualities still do... so I think a clever player in the right group can still make a good go of the arcane archer.

 

[spectre72]

I don't know if it's weak now having not had anyone try one in 3.5e (and never had a player who ran one who "got it" in 3.0), but I think in 3.5, the fact that weapon enhancement bonuses don't stack between bow and arrow anymore sort of nerfed the class.

We play in a very low magic environment with only potions and scrolls available for purchase so perhaps this explains our experience with the class.

Perhaps in a high magic/tooled out environment I would feel differently, but in our low magic/rare magic item campaign the character is a major force to be reckoned with.

 

[Thanee]

What is your reasoning for saying that it is weak?

I share this opinion. Why? Because it adds almost nothing to the archery concept.

What does it really do? The free enhancement bonus is good, but you can have it easily from various other sources (item or spell).

The special abilities are either almost useless, like imbue, or well... nice, but only useable once per day, like the seeker and phase arrows, or that hail of arrows ability, which isn't totally great either.

Arrow of Death? We are talking 17th level here. DC 20? Yeah, right. Scary!

In addition you get some nice skills and pretty standard advancement otherwise (not even as good as that of a ranger and that's a core class).

Every straight ranger or fighter will be a better archer, not even going into the really good archery PrC like the Order of the Bow Initiate or Deepwood Sniper, or even completely insane ones like the Peerless Archer.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

We play in a very low magic environment with only potions and scrolls available for purchase so perhaps this explains our experience with the class.

Yeah, probably does. Altho a class, that is so clearly magical in nature is pretty weird in a low magic environment to say the least.

Perhaps in a high magic/tooled out environment I would feel differently, but in our low magic/rare magic item campaign the character is a major force to be reckoned with.

A pretty standard magic level is enough to top the Arcane Archer's enhancement bonus.

+1 at 8th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 14th, +5 at 16th.
That's quite close to the Greater Magic Weapon spell, which has no extreme opportunity cost like this class. The +5 is quite a bit better, if you do not have any caster level increases by then, but that's about it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[spectre72]

Yeah, probably does. Altho a class, that is so clearly magical in nature is pretty weird in a low magic environment to say the least.

Well sometimes things slip through the cracks

To give you an example, my female gnome 9 monk/1 psion owns two magic items other than potions. They are a +2 Bladed Gauntlet (also adds +2 to strength) and a +1 ring of protection. This is after playing the character since just after 3.0 came out and playing from 1st level.

All of the characters have a similar magic level in the game.

So in a game where enchanted bows and arrows are non existant or very expensive I think an arcane archer has more appeal.

Also, the GM is fairly free with potions, scrolls, and wands because they are not perminant items which means that there is magic but it runs out fast. Also, there is no one in the party that can really craft anything really cool othr than scrolls and wands.

Thanks for the comments.
Scott

 

[Endur]

Balanced PRCs: All of the old PRCs in the 3.5 DMG that were in the 3.0 DMG are balanced. i.e. Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, etc.

The PRCs that were added to the DMG in 3.5 are mostly balanced, although some of them are more powerful than the original 3.0 PRCs i.e. Archmage, Eldritch Warrrior, Mystic Theurge, etc.

PRCs in various other sources range all over the place. Some (especially in Dragon) may be overpowered. Others may be too weak. It just depends.

A good rule of thumb is that if a PRC has the major abilities of two classes, it is too powerful. i.e. Full BAB and Full spell casting = too powerful. This is one of the reasons the Mystic Theurge is overpowered, as it gives full clerical and wizard spellcasting. A more balanced cleric-wizard class is the Kiaransalee PRC in Player's Guide to Fearun, which in ten levels, gives 6 caster levels to both and some necromantic special abilities.

On the other hand, a PRC that gives alternative high level abilities for a class, is ok. For instance, a Barbarian 20 gets lot of abiliites from level 11 -20. A prc should be able to give equivalent specialized abiliities. The Dwarven Defender or the Blackguard are good examples of this, replacing the high level progressions of a Fighter or Paladin respectively.

 

[Thanee]

So in a game where enchanted bows and arrows are non existant or very expensive I think an arcane archer has more appeal.

I totally see your point, but judging balance should be done with an average setting (i.e. by the book D&D) in mind IMHO.

Pick up Vow of Poverty in that campaign...

Bye
Thanee