Balancing LA for epic-level characters (take 2)

[Sammael]

I posted this in the Rules forum, where it got completely ignored. Perhaps it was out of place, so I'll give House Rules a try (but I'm not too hopeful).

My players: stay out!

Introduction

I plan on ending my current campaign in about a year, with the characters ending up around level 22-23. None of these characters currently have level adjustments; most are humans, although some will end the campaign as outsiders because of high-level class abilities.

The Plan

I want to reward these characters with some very, very nice abilities to mark the campaign finale. However, I do not want to go overboard, because I plan on running another campaign for those characters in the future, and don't want to make my job too difficult.

The Idea
I am currently trying to decide on just what those abilities should be. I have three of them figured out (sort of). The party tank (champion of a LN deity) will receive the Axiomatic template and the War Aspect template from the Book of Templates. The halfling sneak will get 3 levels of a (very modified) Halfling Paragon class from Unearthed Arcana. And finally, I planned on giving the party cleric a choice: either become a Proxy of his deity, or gain the Saint template. This character will already be an outsider when he gains either benefit.

The problem

(1) I have trouble believing the Saint template is only LA+2. Using Upper_krusts's CR/LA system, I'm getting CR/LA of around +10. I'd like to lower this to about +3, if at all possible. The first step would be replacing various energy immunities with resistance 15, which lowers the CR/LA by about 2 points. Still, even so, I think it's too good.

(2) What LA would you assign for the Divine Rank 0 I intend to give with the Proxy status (with a caveat that the deity may decide to boost his divine rank, if necessary for the situation)? DvR 0 grants: max hp per HD, base speed 60 ft, fire resistance 5, deflection bonus to AC equal to Cha bonus, DR 10/epic, and SR 32 (fixed). This sounds about right for +3 IMO, and that's what Upper_krusts's system puts it at.

Thanks!

 

[Quartz]

Silly question, but if it's the end of the campaign, why does the LA matter? They'll only have a few sessions with their new-found abilities and then the characters are retired.

 

[Sammael]

That's covered under "The Plan" section. Basically, I expect to run at least one other campaign for these characters (after taking a nice, long break from this one).

 

[Fieari]

Okay. I too believe in U_K's CR system, so first we need a breakdown of the Saint's abilities (not all details given here for legal reasons):

Outsider (Native) type: +0.2
Wisdom AC Bonus: +0.2
Holy Power: +0.5 (+2 insight bonus, ad hoc x2 for applying to everything)
Holy Touch: +0.15 (+1d6 damage is a +1 weapon ability, for both attack and damage, so slightly higher valued than just a +1 to attack)
SLAs (At Will)-- Level 0, Level 0, Level 0, Level 1-- +0.125 (Assuming CL 10)
DR 10/1 type: +0.333
Fast Heal 10: +0.75
3 Energy Immunities: +3
1 status immunity: +0.2
Spell Immunity (0-3): +1.5
+2 AC vs evil: +0.2
+2 saves vs evil: +0.25
Keen Vision: +0.3
Resist 1 energy type for 10: +0.2
Resist poison: +0.04
Tongues: +0.4 (Count as epic feat Polyglot instead of as spell)
Ability Modifications: +0.8

Total: +9.148

Not quite plus ten, but pretty bad anyway. Definitely not +2!

Now then, converting the energy immunities to resist 10s brings the +3 down to +0.6, for a total of +6.748. Cut the spell immunity (0-3), bringing us down to a total of +5.248. Cut fast heal and DR for a total of +4.165. Cut the magic circle completely and we get closer to 3. I think that'd make a fair template. Considerably less powered, but then, that's what you're asking for...

 

[Sammael]

Great analysis, that's exactly what I need! Thanks! I'll compare this to my own notes in the morning. One thing that immediately springs to mind is that I valued the Wisdom bonus to AC at more than +0.2, since this guy is a cleric, and he'll have a Wisdom of about 30 (so +10 to AC) when he receives the template. But that's one of those things that can be pretty tough to make generic...

 

[Fieari]

I scored the AC bonus as per the Monk class ability, since that's what it is.

One thing I didn't do, on the other hand in retrospect, is factor in all the other nice bonuses of a permanent Magic Circle, like being untouchable by summoned creatures, and immune to many (but not all) mind effects. But that's why I said getting rid of the circle altogether would bring it all the way down to 3, because of those extra bits.

 

[Sammael]

The circle will either go away, or be house-ruled to something more reasonable. I've already nerfed protection from alignment spells in my game, because I find it mind-boggling that a 1st level spell can negate the majority of spells (regardless of level) from an entire school of magic (enchantment).

As for the AC bonus, the monk has MAD, unlike the cleric.