Balancing question about monks unarmed attacks

[Henrix]

No, SableWyvern, Gromm is fully correct, check the FAQ.
A multiclassed monk uses his full BAB with iterative attacks at -5, or his monk UBAB.

 

[SableWyvern]

What is the official status of that FAQ? Is it meant to be errata?

If it is merely meant to explain ambiguous rules, in this instance it is just flat out wrong. It does not explain a rule, it contradicts/changes the official rule from the PHB.

If the FAQ does have the authority to make outright rule-changes, then I humbly retract my previous assertions and defer to Gromm and Henrix.

 

[Lela]

What is the official status of that FAQ? Is it meant to be errata?

If it is merely meant to explain ambiguous rules, in this instance it is just flat out wrong. It does not explain a rule, it contradicts/changes the official rule from the PHB.

If the FAQ does have the authority to make outright rule-changes, then I humbly retract my previous assertions and defer to Gromm and Henrix.

It's just supposed to clerify odd or misunderstood rules. If you have a section in the PHB that fully contradicts this then I would send it to him and ask how these two rulings work together. Who knows, you might be wrong or he might change the FAQ because of what you said.


As to the multi-monk, I would say that I think it makes more sense to do it Sable's way. It would be different if the the primary attack mods weren't the same. But, because they are, it implies that they are connected in some way.

Of course, I may be biased because I'm planning to play a Monk in an upcoming campaign.

 

[Corwin]

Basically a multiclassed monk has his BAB and his Monk Unarmed BAB, which are seperate from each other.
So if he has +4 from Monk and +3 from Fighter he gets either
+4/+1 or +7/+2.

We also use the PH/OA version of official rules, FAQ be d@mned.

And yes, go check out the OA version of the rules (page 33). It more clearly spells this out.

The PH eratta list does not make this supposed change. Niether does the PH clarifications list. I think the FAQ is mistaken. Albeit, the PH is a bit difficult to read sometimes. You've really got to read that particular section carefully to understand that it is dealing only in the itterative attacks, not the first.

Sable has it right, IMO.

It's not like the Sage has never been wrong before, either.

[EDIT: for grammar and clarification]

 

[Zhure]

This comes up occasionally. My standard reply

OA, page 33-34
"Characters who have levels of only monk classes always get more unarmed attacks than they would noramlly get based on their base attack bonus (additionaly attacks at intervals of -3, instead of -5). Characters who have levels in other classes as well may or may not gain an advantage from this, and any advantage is often slight.

"Table 3-1: Multiple Unarmed Attacks
Base Attack Bonus Additional Unarmed Attacks
+0 .... ---
+1 .... ---
+2 .... ---
+3 .... ---
+4 .... +1
+5 .... +2
+6 .... +3
+7 .... +4/+1
+8 .... +5/+2
+9 .... +6/+3
+10 ... +7/+4/+1
+11 ... +8/+5/+2
+12 ... +9/+6/+3
+13 ... +10/+7/+4/+1
+14 ... +11/+8/+5/+2
+15 ... +12/+9/+6/+3

"Example: Asako Turima is a 10th-level monk/4th-level henshin mystic. His base attack bonus is +10 (+7 from his monk levels, +3 from his henshin mystic levels). Normally, this would give him an additional attack at +5. He can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for his +10 attack bonus (since the entire bonus is derived from monk and mystic levels) on Table 3-1: Multiple Unarmed Attacks, +7/+4/+1. Thus, he can make four attacks in a round with an unarmed strike (or a monk weaopn), at +10, +7, +4 and +1. When using another weapon, he can make two attacks at +10 and +5. He has the unarmed damage, AC bonus and speed of a 14th-level monk.

"Togashi Tidaiko, however, is a 3rd-level samurai/5th-level monk/ 7th-level tattooed monk. Her base attack bonus is +11 (+3 from her samurai levels, +3 from her monk levels, and +5 from her tattooed monk levels). Normally she would have two additional attacks at +6 and +1. She can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for a +8 base attack bonus from her monk and tattooed monk levels on Table 3-1, +5 and +2. She makes three attacks in a round, whether armed or unarmed. If unarmed (or using a monk weapon), she can choose whether to strike at +11/+6/+1 or at +11/+5/+2. Armed with an ordinary weapon, she must attack at +11/+6/+1. She has the unarmed damage, AC bonus, and abase speed of a 12-th level monk."

from the PHB, page 55
"Monk Base Attack Bonus: The monk is a special case because her additional unarmed attacks are better than her base attack bonus would suggest. For a multiclass monk fighting unarmed, the character must either use the additional attacks given for her monk levels (only) or the additional attacks that are standard for her combined base attack bonus, but not both. "

 

[Corwin]

Re: This comes up occasionally. My standard reply

Yep. And to be clearer still, here's the most important part...

"Togashi Tidaiko, however, is a 3rd-level samurai/5th-level monk/ 7th-level tattooed monk. Her base attack bonus is +11 (+3 from her samurai levels, +3 from her monk levels, and +5 from her tattooed monk levels). Normally she would have two additional attacks at +6 and +1. She can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for a +8 base attack bonus from her monk and tattooed monk levels on Table 3-1, +5 and +2. She makes three attacks in a round, whether armed or unarmed. If unarmed (or using a monk weapon), she can choose whether to strike at +11/+6/+1 or at +11/+5/+2. Armed with an ordinary weapon, she must attack at +11/+6/+1. She has the unarmed damage, AC bonus, and abase speed of a 12-th level monk."

That's +11/+6/+1 or +11/+5/+2. Both cases involve the full BAB on the first attack. It's only itterative attacks that must be one or the other.

Thanks, Zhure.

 

[SableWyvern]

Corwin is right - the PHB description is hard to understand. To try and help clarify things, I'll run through the example given in the PHB step by step.

For instance, a 10th level monk/7th level wizard has a combined attack bonus of +10 (+7 for the monk class, +3 for the wizard class

This is the only direct reference to a primary attack bonus in the entire example: +10.

Normally, this would give her an additional attack at +5 (+10/+5 on Table 3-1: Base Save and Base Attack Bonuses),

NB: although this phrase is specifically talking about only the iterative attack, it gives the full attack bonus on the row from which is was derived (+10/+5) - this becomes important later.

but she can instead take the two additional unarmed attacks listed for a 10th level monk, +4 and +1 (+7/+4/+1 on Table 3-10: The Monk)

This phrase is also talking specifically about iterative attacks: "the two additional unarmed attacks" ... "+4 and +1.

Although it then goes on to list the +7/+4/+1, the context and the NB above make it clear (after you stop to think about it) that the section in brackets is merely there to refer you to the table and row from which the information is derived.

The section should then have gone on to point out bluntly that the monk in question may attack unarmed at +10/+5 OR +10/+4/+1. Had it done so, all this pain could have been averted.

The quote in my original post, together with those in this one, should put the question beyond doubt, from a rules-lawyer's perspective anyway.

BTW, thanks for confirming the FAQ status for me Lela. That's what I thought (as soon as I saw the Sage listed in the credits on p1, I guessed I was in the right ).

EDIT: Great. While I'm busy typing, everyone posts to make this redundant. That's what you get for trying to help out grumble grumble grumble....

 

[Lela]

Re: This comes up occasionally. My standard reply

This example seems to be the only relevent one of the two.

OA, page 33-34

"Togashi Tidaiko, however, is a 3rd-level samurai/5th-level monk/ 7th-level tattooed monk. Her base attack bonus is +11 (+3 from her samurai levels, +3 from her monk levels, and +5 from her tattooed monk levels). Normally she would have two additional attacks at +6 and +1. She can instead take the additional unarmed attacks listed for a +8 base attack bonus from her monk and tattooed monk levels on Table 3-1, +5 and +2. She makes three attacks in a round, whether armed or unarmed. If unarmed (or using a monk weapon), she can choose whether to strike at +11/+6/+1 or at +11/+5/+2. Armed with an ordinary weapon, she must attack at +11/+6/+1. She has the unarmed damage, AC bonus, and abase speed of a 12-th level monk."

And based on the two sets of numbers, it supports Sable over the Sage. You have to read it carefully though.

from the PHB, page 55
"Monk Base Attack Bonus: The monk is a special case because her additional unarmed attacks are better than her base attack bonus would suggest. For a multiclass monk fighting unarmed, the character must either use the additional attacks given for her monk levels (only) or the additional attacks that are standard for her combined base attack bonus, but not both. "

(my emphsis)

Amazing what one word can do to a sentance. I mean, "I hate you" and "I don't hate you" can really make a difference in someone's life.


Thanks Zhure. I hope you didn't go to all the trouble of typing that in just for us.

 

[SableWyvern]

Re: Re: This comes up occasionally. My standard reply

Originall posted by SableWyvern
Nope Kreynolds, have to disagree.

quote:
PHB p55 Base Attack Bonus
For a multiclass monk fighting unarmed, the character must either use the additional attacks given for her monk levels (only) or the additional attacks that are standard for her combined base attack bonus, but not both.

(my emphasis)

from the PHB, page 55 "Monk Base Attack Bonus: The monk is a special case because her additional unarmed attacks are better than her base attack bonus would suggest. For a multiclass monk fighting unarmed, the character must either use the additional attacks given for her monk levels (only) or the additional attacks that are standard for her combined base attack bonus, but not both. "

(my emphsis)

Hey, if you're gonna plagairise me, you could at least do it in a different thread.

 

[Lela]

Re: Re: Re: This comes up occasionally. My standard reply

Hey, if you're gonna plagairise me, you could at least do it in a different thread.

Wasn't me. I plagarised someone else who plagarised you who, in turn, plagairised WotC.